Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The Honda engine has the typical Japanese engine look. I just can't put my finger on what it is exactly? Shiny black parts and lots of square shapes?
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DutchPanther
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 18, 2022 5:17 pm
The Honda engine has the typical Japanese engine look. I just can't put my finger on what it is exactly? Shiny black parts and lots of square shapes?
I think it's the combination of compactness and the curves like 2JZ, RB26DETT and of course the Turbo fan turbo intake
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DutchPanther
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Are there any current F1 engines on the grid that basically have an antilag like the Subaru rocket antilag system?

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Roostfactor
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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DutchPanther wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:11 pm
Are there any current F1 engines on the grid that basically have an antilag like the Subaru rocket antilag system?

Well they do but not like that. The Subaru system I would think wastes fuel which is the enemy of this F1 formula.
Instead they use the MGU H as an antilag "motor" when needed then it will switch to "generator" when needed to help charge the battery.

That is the simple answer as these systems are very complex and can change mode very quickly.

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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DutchPanther wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:11 pm
Are there any current F1 engines on the grid that basically have an antilag like the Subaru rocket antilag system?

Thank you for sharing this video. I like it very much.
If I don't remember it wrong, during 2020 preseason tests honda pu was making poping sounds during braking. @godlameroso shared something and after that we started discussing some ideas which will burn fuel during exhaust strok to push it to directly turbo to spin it faster so the electric motor which coupled with turbo to genarate electiric, which is quite similer to subaru's "rocket antilag" system.
During season the sound was not there. I remember a statement of honda F1 boss when he was talking about das system of merc. He was saying they wanted to implement some innovations but fia refused. The ideas we were talking about was just our assumptions about that poping sounds and we can not say Honda was doing one of them or doing something like what subaru made. But again as an assumption of mine, I thought Honda wanted to implement something like that and Fia refused.

DutchPanther
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Roostfactor wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:51 pm
DutchPanther wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:11 pm
Are there any current F1 engines on the grid that basically have an antilag like the Subaru rocket antilag system?

Well they do but not like that. The Subaru system I would think wastes fuel which is the enemy of this F1 formula.
Instead they use the MGU H as an antilag "motor" when needed then it will switch to "generator" when needed to help charge the battery.

That is the simple answer as these systems are very complex and can change mode very quickly.
Yes, I thought the same, just spool up the turbo to get a better launch using H unit, while the Subaru used fuel and the pressure tank
How hard can it be? ~Jeremious Clarksonious

DutchPanther
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote: ↑
Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:20 am
DutchPanther wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:11 pm
Are there any current F1 engines on the grid that basically have an antilag like the Subaru rocket antilag system?

Thank you for sharing this video. I like it very much.
If I don't remember it wrong, during 2020 preseason tests honda pu was making poping sounds during braking. @godlameroso shared something and after that we started discussing some ideas which will burn fuel during exhaust strok to push it to directly turbo to spin it faster so the electric motor which coupled with turbo to genarate electiric, which is quite similer to subaru's "rocket antilag" system.
During season the sound was not there. I remember a statement of honda F1 boss when he was talking about das system of merc. He was saying they wanted to implement some innovations but fia refused. The ideas we were talking about was just our assumptions about that poping sounds and we can not say Honda was doing one of them or doing something like what subaru made. But again as an assumption of mine, I thought Honda wanted to implement something like that and Fia refused.
Yes I heard about that, apparantly the Honda was using it's big turbos as a flywheel to hold the energy (I think it was the CAC bypass 2, not sure..), if that is true, I think the crackling sound makes sense also, it certainly made the Honda the best sounding engine!
How hard can it be? ~Jeremious Clarksonious

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Early on in this thread, there are great number of pages on the sound the engine makes and if it could be anti-lag.

The popping sounds was their combustion process to preserve fuel. Cutting cylinders and some weird way of fuel mixing when off throttle. It might have had better effects on spinning up the thurbo because were pondering if the engine was switching to "big bang" firing depending on the map. But I don't think is the same rally-style antilag of dumping fuel jn the exhaust. (that's lot of fire)

Anti-lag this way means high fuel consumption and lower parts life so it is too risky to do it when they have the MUGH to do that job of spinning up the turbo. (the turbo is also already spinning quite fast over the lap) revs dont drop low like in rally.

The other thing is that the early Honda compressors were much smaller than the competition so they were less laggy by far I would say.
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etusch
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Subaru's car looks like it use distributer. I think with this tech of electronic they would do it far better.

You can use mgu-h for anti lag.
If you use some tech like subaru did for spinning turbo you will burn more fuel.
When you spin turbo with mgu-h you will consume battery power. So in both case you will consume energy. Then question is which one is more beneficial at the end.
In the other hand when you are able to send unlimited electiric power to battery via mgu-h it is not only anti-lag thing. There are more need to be calculated/benefited.

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Spinning turbo by MGU-H using battery power, that battery power has been accumulated inside the battery for free before it being used.

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PlatinumZealot
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They can spin the MGUH directly from the MGUK. Meaning they can do harvest under braking inti a slow corner and bleed off some kf this electricty to keep the turbocharger spinning at 100k rpm or whatever.

The thing is... These turbochargers are massive. The wheels are four inches across. A turbo this size is basically like a flywheel, they don't slow down as much as a tiny rally turbocharger. I am guessing the speed drops are not massive. Would be nice if FIA had a boost pressure graphic.
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Hoffman900
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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My guess is they’re like the Audi DTM engines where boost pressure is pretty consistent and lamda is what varies. Contrast this to what we know traditionally where boost pressure varies and lamda stays consistent.

DutchPanther
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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From what I understood, the Subaru basically treats it's turbo charger like a turbine engine while, most F1 car use the MGU-H as the driving force for the turbine. As Hoffman said (which I imagine is what most teams probably do), if the turbo pressure is to be a constant, then definitely the H unit is being used as a motor. But that said then, won't they be able to change core engine characteristics with a switch?
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Roostfactor
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DutchPanther wrote: ↑
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:23 pm
From what I understood, the Subaru basically treats it's turbo charger like a turbine engine while, most F1 car use the MGU-H as the driving force for the turbine. As Hoffman said (which I imagine is what most teams probably do), if the turbo pressure is to be a constant, then definitely the H unit is being used as a motor. But that said then, won't they be able to change core engine characteristics with a switch?
I dont know what you mean by "core engine characteristics" but yes that's what the different strat modes and other switches do, change how much mgu's recharge (generator) vs adding to output power (motor).
This we know happens, how it happens is the top secret magic.

Hoffman900
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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DutchPanther wrote: ↑
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:23 pm
From what I understood, the Subaru basically treats it's turbo charger like a turbine engine while, most F1 car use the MGU-H as the driving force for the turbine. As Hoffman said (which I imagine is what most teams probably do), if the turbo pressure is to be a constant, then definitely the H unit is being used as a motor. But that said then, won't they be able to change core engine characteristics with a switch?
F1 engines are this way as well. They run a ton of air through them.