2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

[McL-H]

In my opinion, if the team has a chance to partner up with Porsche they should take it. I believe during the McLaren-Mercedes years, Mercedes had a stake in McLaren as well. Don’t know whether it’s the 50% Porsche aimed for at RBR. But in any case I don’t think it will hinder our performances if we combined all expertise of McLaren and Porsche. It could be our best shot at fighting for championships again.

[mwillems]

What's the issue with the Merc engine, and how does the Merc engine prevent us from winning the championship?
What will the Porsche engine/tie up do for both the team and the Mclaren group as a whole?

I have a limited perspective perhaps, but I think that the Merc engine is more than good enough for a championship and I think that the Porsche tie up might save us some money on engines at best, but engine are not included in the budget cap so.... Can someone explain what the big deal is beyond a big brand potentially attaching itself to Mclaren?

[Emag]

I don't think the front suspension has anything to do with the lack of performance. Or the power unit for that matter. Mercedes is probably not the benchmark anymore, but the power unit is clearly doing just fine in the works team so it can't be the main limiting factor.

The rear suspension however, could be a culprit. They are suffering a lot more in heavy traction zones this year, and that's an area they excelled at last year. I mean Bahrain it's the epitome of a traction track and they were abysmal there. The thing is, their rear suspension is quite weird this year. When the car first launched, that was the area that intrigued me the most because the layout of the arms was something we hadn't really seen before, at least not in the near past. Their experiments there, which I am assuming were probably made for aero benefits at the rear, might have brought some mechanical handicaps in power delivery.

It could be that this design is immature, and major upgrades are needed to bring it up to speed. Upgrades which I am assuming would require significant changes at the rear of the car so they cannot be brought mid-season.

Or it could be that the suspension is just fine, and the issues lie elsewhere. Either way, we will find out when the MCL-37 is unveiled. At the moment it's just a guess.

[continuum16]

I'm expecting the MCL37 to be pretty radical or Mr. Key should start to feel a little nervous. From his comments about there being "other ideas" the team thought of but did not implement on the "conservative" MCL36, I expect that the team would learn from their mistakes. The funny thing is that when the car launched I thought that the team said the car was pretty radical, but when we saw the rest of the grid it seemed like the goalposts were moved. The team made the same gross underestimation of the available innovation within the new regs in 2009 and arguably in 2014 also.

On another note; something that I've picked up on is that the team hasn't really poached any headline technical talent from the top teams in a while. The last one I can think of is Prodomou and that was eight years ago. Meanwhile, Aston is snatching Merc/RB folks at an alarming rate, Haas has Ferrari personnel, AlphaTauri probably has some RB personnel, etc. Clearly Zak is not afraid to break the bank to get drivers, but you can put Lewis, Max, or whoever else in the MCL36 and they aren't going any better than Alpine is now. Could have used someone like Allison or even Aldo Costa from Merc to steer the ship into the 2022 regs alongside/above Key.

I know the facilities at McLaren aren't exceptional, but I have a hard time believing that is the sole problem (not that anyone says it is, but it is the common answer).

People have to want to leave to be poached. Allison just accepted the CTO role at Merc in 2021 with Mike Elliott replacing him as Technical Director.

Plus what would you do with Key?

What do you do with Key? It depends what the structure is; I feel like he might be a good Mike Elliot to someone's James Allison, but AFAIK McLaren does not have a CTO and TD (Key's current title) is top of the engineering dept. I single out Key because despite being in F1 for over a decade (TD since 2005) he has yet to produce a car that has finished higher than 4th in the WCC and even then it was the MCL35/35M which were evolutions of designs that were not his.

People are leaving Merc/RB for Aston, so clearly some people want to leave; it's probably a matter of Stroll willing to throw more cash at it than Brown.

As for the wind tunnel, yes, I know it's a limitation, but Alfa/Sauber have an excellent wind tunnel (and simulator) and they aren't exactly running away with the WCC despite being a customer team like McLaren and nearly operating at the budget cap. On the opposite end of the spectrum, RB uses the oldest and smallest wind tunnel in F1 (it's from the 1950s) with the least ATR time and seems to have no problem producing decent cars. Great tools help but you've got to know how to use them.

[The Prodigy]

I never understood why they let Pat Fry go. Pat Fry should at least be some kind of consultant or mentor for Key.

[Emag]

I never understood why they let Pat Fry go. Pat Fry should at least be some kind of consultant or mentor for Key.

There is the simple explanation of him wanting to leave. You can't force someone to work for you. Perhaps Pat did not want to fall into any role where he didn't have the final say, and he might have gotten that at Alpine so that's where he went.

[ScottR267]

I never understood why they let Pat Fry go. Pat Fry should at least be some kind of consultant or mentor for Key.

I believe Pat Fry was only brought back on a temporary basis to see the team through from the transition from Morris to Key.

He then got offered the Renault/Alpine role which for himself was an opportunity he could not refuse I guess

[diffuser]

I never understood why they let Pat Fry go. Pat Fry should at least be some kind of consultant or mentor for Key.

I believe Pat Fry was only brought back on a temporary basis to see the team through from the transition from Morris to Key.

He then got offered the Renault/Alpine role which for himself was an opportunity he could not refuse I guess

Rumour was that Key and Fry don't get along.

[MrGapes]

https://www.3dprintingmedia.network/mcl ... o-800/amp/

Insightful article.

[diffuser]

I'm expecting the MCL37 to be pretty radical or Mr. Key should start to feel a little nervous. From his comments about there being "other ideas" the team thought of but did not implement on the "conservative" MCL36, I expect that the team would learn from their mistakes. The funny thing is that when the car launched I thought that the team said the car was pretty radical, but when we saw the rest of the grid it seemed like the goalposts were moved. The team made the same gross underestimation of the available innovation within the new regs in 2009 and arguably in 2014 also.

On another note; something that I've picked up on is that the team hasn't really poached any headline technical talent from the top teams in a while. The last one I can think of is Prodomou and that was eight years ago. Meanwhile, Aston is snatching Merc/RB folks at an alarming rate, Haas has Ferrari personnel, AlphaTauri probably has some RB personnel, etc. Clearly Zak is not afraid to break the bank to get drivers, but you can put Lewis, Max, or whoever else in the MCL36 and they aren't going any better than Alpine is now. Could have used someone like Allison or even Aldo Costa from Merc to steer the ship into the 2022 regs alongside/above Key.

I know the facilities at McLaren aren't exceptional, but I have a hard time believing that is the sole problem (not that anyone says it is, but it is the common answer).

People have to want to leave to be poached. Allison just accepted the CTO role at Merc in 2021 with Mike Elliott replacing him as Technical Director.

Plus what would you do with Key?

What do you do with Key? It depends what the structure is; I feel like he might be a good Mike Elliot to someone's James Allison, but AFAIK McLaren does not have a CTO and TD (Key's current title) is top of the engineering dept. I single out Key because despite being in F1 for over a decade (TD since 2005) he has yet to produce a car that has finished higher than 4th in the WCC and even then it was the MCL35/35M which were evolutions of designs that were not his.

People are leaving Merc/RB for Aston, so clearly some people want to leave; it's probably a matter of Stroll willing to throw more cash at it than Brown.

As for the wind tunnel, yes, I know it's a limitation, but Alfa/Sauber have an excellent wind tunnel (and simulator) and they aren't exactly running away with the WCC despite being a customer team like McLaren and nearly operating at the budget cap. On the opposite end of the spectrum, RB uses the oldest and smallest wind tunnel in F1 (it's from the 1950s) with the least ATR time and seems to have no problem producing decent cars. Great tools help but you've got to know how to use them.

I presume the people that are leaving are not CAP exempt employes, of which only 3 can be and I would presume that Alison is.

[Vasco]

I'm expecting the MCL37 to be pretty radical or Mr. Key should start to feel a little nervous. From his comments about there being "other ideas" the team thought of but did not implement on the "conservative" MCL36, I expect that the team would learn from their mistakes. The funny thing is that when the car launched I thought that the team said the car was pretty radical, but when we saw the rest of the grid it seemed like the goalposts were moved. The team made the same gross underestimation of the available innovation within the new regs in 2009 and arguably in 2014 also.

On another note; something that I've picked up on is that the team hasn't really poached any headline technical talent from the top teams in a while. The last one I can think of is Prodomou and that was eight years ago. Meanwhile, Aston is snatching Merc/RB folks at an alarming rate, Haas has Ferrari personnel, AlphaTauri probably has some RB personnel, etc. Clearly Zak is not afraid to break the bank to get drivers, but you can put Lewis, Max, or whoever else in the MCL36 and they aren't going any better than Alpine is now. Could have used someone like Allison or even Aldo Costa from Merc to steer the ship into the 2022 regs alongside/above Key.

I know the facilities at McLaren aren't exceptional, but I have a hard time believing that is the sole problem (not that anyone says it is, but it is the common answer).

People have to want to leave to be poached. Allison just accepted the CTO role at Merc in 2021 with Mike Elliott replacing him as Technical Director.

Plus what would you do with Key?

What do you do with Key? It depends what the structure is; I feel like he might be a good Mike Elliot to someone's James Allison, but AFAIK McLaren does not have a CTO and TD (Key's current title) is top of the engineering dept. I single out Key because despite being in F1 for over a decade (TD since 2005) he has yet to produce a car that has finished higher than 4th in the WCC and even then it was the MCL35/35M which were evolutions of designs that were not his.

People are leaving Merc/RB for Aston, so clearly some people want to leave; it's probably a matter of Stroll willing to throw more cash at it than Brown.

As for the wind tunnel, yes, I know it's a limitation, but Alfa/Sauber have an excellent wind tunnel (and simulator) and they aren't exactly running away with the WCC despite being a customer team like McLaren and nearly operating at the budget cap. On the opposite end of the spectrum, RB uses the oldest and smallest wind tunnel in F1 (it's from the 1950s) with the least ATR time and seems to have no problem producing decent cars. Great tools help but you've got to know how to use them.

Not sure if RBRs wind-tunnel is outdated - but in any case the main problem is around efficient use of the wind-tunnel. RBR want to build a new one in their Milton Keyes campus for better efficiency even though their existing wind-tunnel is in the UK. For Mclaren, this is even worse as they have to use a wind-tunnel in a different country. In one of the articles posted earlier - James Key alluded to not being able to fully utlise their wind-tunnel time.

I still think that Ron Dennis was right that Mclaren at some point will need to have a partnership with an engine manufacturer and not as a customer. RBR has proven it with Honda. At this point, Mclaren's aero is so far behind it doesn't really matter that they are a customer.

[MrGapes]

I'm expecting the MCL37 to be pretty radical or Mr. Key should start to feel a little nervous. From his comments about there being "other ideas" the team thought of but did not implement on the "conservative" MCL36, I expect that the team would learn from their mistakes. The funny thing is that when the car launched I thought that the team said the car was pretty radical, but when we saw the rest of the grid it seemed like the goalposts were moved. The team made the same gross underestimation of the available innovation within the new regs in 2009 and arguably in 2014 also.

On another note; something that I've picked up on is that the team hasn't really poached any headline technical talent from the top teams in a while. The last one I can think of is Prodomou and that was eight years ago. Meanwhile, Aston is snatching Merc/RB folks at an alarming rate, Haas has Ferrari personnel, AlphaTauri probably has some RB personnel, etc. Clearly Zak is not afraid to break the bank to get drivers, but you can put Lewis, Max, or whoever else in the MCL36 and they aren't going any better than Alpine is now. Could have used someone like Allison or even Aldo Costa from Merc to steer the ship into the 2022 regs alongside/above Key.

I know the facilities at McLaren aren't exceptional, but I have a hard time believing that is the sole problem (not that anyone says it is, but it is the common answer).

People have to want to leave to be poached. Allison just accepted the CTO role at Merc in 2021 with Mike Elliott replacing him as Technical Director.

Plus what would you do with Key?

What do you do with Key? It depends what the structure is; I feel like he might be a good Mike Elliot to someone's James Allison, but AFAIK McLaren does not have a CTO and TD (Key's current title) is top of the engineering dept. I single out Key because despite being in F1 for over a decade (TD since 2005) he has yet to produce a car that has finished higher than 4th in the WCC and even then it was the MCL35/35M which were evolutions of designs that were not his.

People are leaving Merc/RB for Aston, so clearly some people want to leave; it's probably a matter of Stroll willing to throw more cash at it than Brown.

As for the wind tunnel, yes, I know it's a limitation, but Alfa/Sauber have an excellent wind tunnel (and simulator) and they aren't exactly running away with the WCC despite being a customer team like McLaren and nearly operating at the budget cap. On the opposite end of the spectrum, RB uses the oldest and smallest wind tunnel in F1 (it's from the 1950s) with the least ATR time and seems to have no problem producing decent cars. Great tools help but you've got to know how to use them.

As far as I know RB doesn't really have any wind tunnel technological limitations in terms of data collection, its mostly because it takes a while to start up which eats into their wind tunnel allocation time they want a new tunnel + it would be inhouse. "RB uses the oldest and smallest wind tunnel in F1", RB probably have one of the largest tunnels of all the teams on the grid (even though it doesn't matter as long as it can fit a 60% model), its old but has been heavily modified and updated. Sauber have a much smaller employee base than that of the other larger teams soo its hard to make that comparison... I think its too early to judge Key, they had to overcome many battles with the design of the MCL36... covid, brexit, pu change etc. I think its better they implement the fundamental changes that they think are necessary to go forward, if nothing changes from there then they makes alterations to the team, no use in making hasty decisions.

[diffuser]

People have to want to leave to be poached. Allison just accepted the CTO role at Merc in 2021 with Mike Elliott replacing him as Technical Director.

Plus what would you do with Key?

What do you do with Key? It depends what the structure is; I feel like he might be a good Mike Elliot to someone's James Allison, but AFAIK McLaren does not have a CTO and TD (Key's current title) is top of the engineering dept. I single out Key because despite being in F1 for over a decade (TD since 2005) he has yet to produce a car that has finished higher than 4th in the WCC and even then it was the MCL35/35M which were evolutions of designs that were not his.

People are leaving Merc/RB for Aston, so clearly some people want to leave; it's probably a matter of Stroll willing to throw more cash at it than Brown.

As for the wind tunnel, yes, I know it's a limitation, but Alfa/Sauber have an excellent wind tunnel (and simulator) and they aren't exactly running away with the WCC despite being a customer team like McLaren and nearly operating at the budget cap. On the opposite end of the spectrum, RB uses the oldest and smallest wind tunnel in F1 (it's from the 1950s) with the least ATR time and seems to have no problem producing decent cars. Great tools help but you've got to know how to use them.

As far as I know RB doesn't really have any wind tunnel technological limitations in terms of data collection, its mostly because it takes a while to start up which eats into their wind tunnel allocation time they want a new tunnel + it would be inhouse. "RB uses the oldest and smallest wind tunnel in F1", RB probably have one of the largest tunnels of all the teams on the grid (even though it doesn't matter as long as it can fit a 60% model), its old but has been heavily modified and updated. Sauber have a much smaller employee base than that of the other larger teams soo its hard to make that comparison... I think its too early to judge Key, they had to overcome many battles with the design of the MCL36... covid, brexit, pu change etc. I think its better they implement the fundamental changes that they think are necessary to go forward, if nothing changes from there then they makes alterations to the team, no use in making hasty decisions.

is that what you're really trying to say there ? Sounds like a contradiction.

[diffuser]

People have to want to leave to be poached. Allison just accepted the CTO role at Merc in 2021 with Mike Elliott replacing him as Technical Director.

Plus what would you do with Key?

What do you do with Key? It depends what the structure is; I feel like he might be a good Mike Elliot to someone's James Allison, but AFAIK McLaren does not have a CTO and TD (Key's current title) is top of the engineering dept. I single out Key because despite being in F1 for over a decade (TD since 2005) he has yet to produce a car that has finished higher than 4th in the WCC and even then it was the MCL35/35M which were evolutions of designs that were not his.

People are leaving Merc/RB for Aston, so clearly some people want to leave; it's probably a matter of Stroll willing to throw more cash at it than Brown.

As for the wind tunnel, yes, I know it's a limitation, but Alfa/Sauber have an excellent wind tunnel (and simulator) and they aren't exactly running away with the WCC despite being a customer team like McLaren and nearly operating at the budget cap. On the opposite end of the spectrum, RB uses the oldest and smallest wind tunnel in F1 (it's from the 1950s) with the least ATR time and seems to have no problem producing decent cars. Great tools help but you've got to know how to use them.

Not sure if RBRs wind-tunnel is outdated - but in any case the main problem is around efficient use of the wind-tunnel. RBR want to build a new one in their Milton Keyes campus for better efficiency even though their existing wind-tunnel is in the UK. For Mclaren, this is even worse as they have to use a wind-tunnel in a different country. In one of the articles posted earlier - James Key alluded to not being able to fully utlise their wind-tunnel time.

I still think that Ron Dennis was right that Mclaren at some point will need to have a partnership with an engine manufacturer and not as a customer. RBR has proven it with Honda. At this point, Mclaren's aero is so far behind it doesn't really matter that they are a customer.

I think what Ron Dennis said applied to an F1 age that had completely different rules for PU sharing than the ones that are applied to F1 now. I'm getting tired of people coming around and beating this drum when they are completely clueless to the change in rules. Basically Merc would be DISQUALIFIED for running their PU in a different way to the way McLaren, Williams and Asten Martin run it. Everything has to be identical and it is completely locked down. The software is verified at CKSUM level and the FIA have the PU specs. The customer teams are allowed access to latest transmissions, fuels, software and MAPS.


Everybody trails the big 3 because they have the best of everything, for now. I expect that the Alpine's and the McLaren's have the money to catch up to the big 3 but it will take time. Think it has to do with more than just environmental issues. There was this podcast with Fry where he talked about the his early years at McLaren. He had mentioned that the years leading up to 2007, McLaren Engineering had built so many tools to help and improve chassis performance that it was a distinct advantage. I suspect that's what the unbig 3 are missing.

[continuum16]

I think I should have elaborated a little better; but I'll stop dragging my feet on this. My point was that there is a general perception that "oh, well McLaren can't win, because they have a crappy wind tunnel" and/or that "when the new tunnel is there they will win" and I respectfully disagree, because I don't think it's a cure-all solution. There are also deficiencies beyond aero that the wind tunnel will do nothing to solve (both technically and operationally). Maybe I'll be wrong (if so, great for McLaren and F1!).

I was more pointing to McLaren's general struggles to adapt to regulation changes. Not one of 2009, 2014, 2017, or 2022 provided any appreciable step forward compared to the previous year despite the "big opportunity". Perhaps a discussion for another thread in the future.

I only mentioned "customer team" as an example; I don't think it's nearly as bad a limitation as it used to be and with the right management I think a customer team could compete for championships. Not easy, but not impossible either.

On Key, I don't think he's the bottleneck but I just haven't seen anything in his career that leads me to believe that he can head up a championship-winning design team. But hey, I haven't designed any championship-winning cars either .

On to Monza, which I would expect to go similarly to Montreal (i.e. not great, unfortunately).