Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Not sure where to post this, but the current conversation here about reliability updates and how that can change performance seems to fit it well:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/renault-e ... ower-unit/
Renault’s power unit chief has predicted the FIA will be stricter on upgrades in the future after “70 requests” from different manufacturers in 2022.
“I think the process in 2022 with the FIA ​​​​and the other manufacturers was quite good. At least it was transparent, so everyone knew about each other’s requests, and that’s very good,” he said, as per Motorsport-Total.com.

“In 2022 it was quite tolerant. I think that was quite normal because everyone was affected by reliability issues. I think we had 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 requests from different manufacturers, so everyone was affected by this type of problem.”

Famin, who used to work at the FIA, did however, expect the sport’s governing body to be more strict as the seasons go on.

“I expect the FIA ​​to be a bit stricter in the future, but I don’t have any information,” the Renault man said.

“What is a pure reliability issue? That’s a question we can’t answer because the reliability issue often hides a potential performance gain.

“If you have a problem with the water pump, like we had in 2022, it’s clearly a pure reliability problem: there’s no point in using a different water pump.

“But if you have to change the material of the piston rings to have something stronger, to have more power, where is the limit? It’s not obvious.”
Quotes from Bruno Farmin (alpine technical director I believe)

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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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That means all the teams did some kind of engine upgrade

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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Venturiation wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 1:48 pm
That means all the teams did some kind of engine upgrade
F1 got what they wanted (until Famin opened his mouth that is).

F1 got it's image of being green, and cost effective because the "freeze". While secretly the manufacturers did whatever they wanted behind the scenes it looks like....

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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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An engine supplier wishing to make changes can submit a written application to the FIA's Technical Department, outlining the reasons for the request. Very minor changes will be permitted, provided the FIA's Technical Department and other manufacturers' notified and approves. They have no choice but to approve them. This is politics.

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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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pursue_one's wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 7:08 pm
They have no choice but to approve them.
According to who? The FIA can look at the submission, but the FIA doesn't have to approve anything.

You think they are going to submit a document requesting a brand new turbo design?

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AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:33 pm
pursue_one's wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 7:08 pm
They have no choice but to approve them.
According to who? The FIA can look at the submission, but the FIA doesn't have to approve anything.

You think they are going to submit a document requesting a brand new turbo design?
No way, these changes(combustion chamber, Turbo, compressor, etc...)are not just minor changes.

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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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pursue_one's wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:43 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:33 pm
pursue_one's wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 7:08 pm
They have no choice but to approve them.
According to who? The FIA can look at the submission, but the FIA doesn't have to approve anything.

You think they are going to submit a document requesting a brand new turbo design?
No way, these changes(combustion chamber, Turbo, compressor, etc...)are not just minor changes.
Changing the material of a crankshaft is pretty significant design change.

After all, a stronger crankshaft might be able to take more power before failing. So the teams basically have an infinite amount of design space in the area of materials selection. It's bound to be abused.

As I said above, F1 got to claim they are going green, less waste, less budget inflation publically. Behind the scenes its a joke.

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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:21 pm
pursue_one's wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:43 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:33 pm


According to who? The FIA can look at the submission, but the FIA doesn't have to approve anything.

You think they are going to submit a document requesting a brand new turbo design?
No way, these changes(combustion chamber, Turbo, compressor, etc...)are not just minor changes.
Changing the material of a crankshaft is pretty significant design change.

After all, a stronger crankshaft might be able to take more power before failing. So the teams basically have an infinite amount of design space in the area of materials selection. It's bound to be abused.

As I said above, F1 got to claim they are going green, less waste, less budget inflation publically. Behind the scenes its a joke.
You are right. They are negotiating behind the scenes.
Engine development freeze is just as good as having nothing.

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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:21 pm
pursue_one's wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:43 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:33 pm


According to who? The FIA can look at the submission, but the FIA doesn't have to approve anything.

You think they are going to submit a document requesting a brand new turbo design?
No way, these changes(combustion chamber, Turbo, compressor, etc...)are not just minor changes.
Changing the material of a crankshaft is pretty significant design change.

After all, a stronger crankshaft might be able to take more power before failing. So the teams basically have an infinite amount of design space in the area of materials selection. It's bound to be abused.

As I said above, F1 got to claim they are going green, less waste, less budget inflation publically. Behind the scenes its a joke.
You can’t change materials for ever

F1 is a joke now because they are using very limited regulations and budget cap
Now it’s turning into a spec series sport with every car with same performance and components

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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Venturiation wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:54 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:21 pm
pursue_one's wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:43 pm


No way, these changes(combustion chamber, Turbo, compressor, etc...)are not just minor changes.
Changing the material of a crankshaft is pretty significant design change.

After all, a stronger crankshaft might be able to take more power before failing. So the teams basically have an infinite amount of design space in the area of materials selection. It's bound to be abused.

As I said above, F1 got to claim they are going green, less waste, less budget inflation publically. Behind the scenes its a joke.
You can’t change materials for ever
No. Once a year is fine. :wink:

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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:55 pm
Venturiation wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:54 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:21 pm


Changing the material of a crankshaft is pretty significant design change.

After all, a stronger crankshaft might be able to take more power before failing. So the teams basically have an infinite amount of design space in the area of materials selection. It's bound to be abused.

As I said above, F1 got to claim they are going green, less waste, less budget inflation publically. Behind the scenes its a joke.
You can’t change materials for ever
No. Once a year is fine. :wink:
By that i mean F1 is already using the best possible material , there isn’t much room for material improvement

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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Venturiation wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:59 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:55 pm
Venturiation wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:54 pm


You can’t change materials for ever
No. Once a year is fine. :wink:
By that i mean F1 is already using the best possible material , there isn’t much room for material improvement
You're oversimplifying a very complex matter.

The scientific and industrial R&D communities develop hundreds of new metal alloys every year. These newer materials might have better properties in terms of fatigue limit, yield strength, resilience, thermal expansion, hardness, surface friction, and a host of other parameters that can allow improved performance. These are small gains, but they add up.

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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:05 pm
Venturiation wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:59 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:55 pm


No. Once a year is fine. :wink:
By that i mean F1 is already using the best possible material , there isn’t much room for material improvement
You're oversimplifying a very complex matter.

The scientific and industrial R&D communities develop hundreds of new metal alloys every year. These newer materials might have better properties in terms of fatigue limit, yield strength, resilience, thermal expansion, hardness, surface friction, and a host of other parameters that can allow improved performance. These are small gains, but they add up.
Then all the teams will get the new alloys and the performance stays the same , specially now that you need approval from other teams and they see what you are doing

But I’m wondering if you can change fuel based on reliability too

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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Venturiation wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:45 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:05 pm
Venturiation wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:59 pm


By that i mean F1 is already using the best possible material , there isn’t much room for material improvement
You're oversimplifying a very complex matter.

The scientific and industrial R&D communities develop hundreds of new metal alloys every year. These newer materials might have better properties in terms of fatigue limit, yield strength, resilience, thermal expansion, hardness, surface friction, and a host of other parameters that can allow improved performance. These are small gains, but they add up.
Then all the teams will get the new alloys and the performance stays the same , specially now that you need approval from other teams and they see what you are doing.
All the teams will not "get the new alloys" as compositions are proprietary. Also, some engine manufacturers are tired of spending money and they aren't going to keep up (mainly Renault...)

This is why their engine director raised the issue in the first place.

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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:46 pm
Venturiation wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:45 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:05 pm


You're oversimplifying a very complex matter.

The scientific and industrial R&D communities develop hundreds of new metal alloys every year. These newer materials might have better properties in terms of fatigue limit, yield strength, resilience, thermal expansion, hardness, surface friction, and a host of other parameters that can allow improved performance. These are small gains, but they add up.
Then all the teams will get the new alloys and the performance stays the same , specially now that you need approval from other teams and they see what you are doing.
All the teams will not "get the new alloys" as compositions are proprietary. Also, some engine manufacturers are tired of spending money and they aren't going to keep up (mainly Renault...)

This is why their engine director raised the issue in the first place.
The composition is visible by everyone when they ask for the upgrade, that’s the downside