Engines and Fuels Loophole

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Venturiation
Venturiation
0
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2023 6:48 pm

Engines and Fuels Loophole

Post

Renault’s power unit chief has predicted the FIA will be stricter on upgrades in the future after “70 requests” from different manufacturers in 2022.

What kind of loopholes do think was used to do this? Isn’t 70 too much? And does that mean they can change fuel for reliability too?

Mercedes was the weakest engine in 2022 but the most reliable and they don’t need reliability uograde

User avatar
Stu
Moderator
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:05 am
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Engines and Fuels Loophole

Post

They got one though, a new crankshaft was in the last batch of 2022 engines, apparently.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

Venturiation
Venturiation
0
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2023 6:48 pm

Re: Engines and Fuels Loophole

Post

Can they ask for fuel upgrade because it’s damaging the engine?

User avatar
Holm86
232
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:37 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Engines and Fuels Loophole

Post

Venturiation wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 2:44 pm
Can they ask for fuel upgrade because it’s damaging the engine?
Maybe if they can argue that they have too much knock

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
509
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Engines and Fuels Loophole

Post

Were the fuels frozen in 2022? If they were then that's the problem.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

====Zen level====
|||||||<@>||^||<@>|||||||

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
97
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: Engines and Fuels Loophole

Post

It's quite semantical to blame knocking on the fuel. Knock can arise for many many reasons. It just so happens that a new fuel mixture can be a solution. That does not mean that the current fuel is the problem.

If high combustion chamber temperature and pressure is causing knock, then you can reduce the boost pressure to eliminate the knock. Quite simple and much less expensive than reinventing the fuel.

Allowing them to change their fuel mixture allows them to increase power which subverts the intention of the regulations. No one should be using "Reliability" tweaks to gain power especially with regards to fuel because if you open the fuel can of worms, then you have an infinite design space for power improvement.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
45
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Engines and Fuels Loophole

Post

A fuel mixture change is not allowed. Fuel and engine oil upgrades deadline was 1 March 2022. But a change of fuel and engine oil supplier is permitted.
The 2022 specification fuel is far more resistance to knock than the previous fuel used.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
594
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Engines and Fuels Loophole

Post

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:02 am
The 2022 specification fuel is far more resistance to knock than the previous fuel used.
is there a source of this information ?
or is this an unevidenced assumption

the fuel rules from 2014 have never had an upper limit to knock resistance (octane number)

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
94
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Engines and Fuels Loophole

Post

From that other series
(And I think he meant sugar beets)


saviour stivala
saviour stivala
45
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Engines and Fuels Loophole

Post

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:33 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:02 am
The 2022 specification fuel is far more resistance to knock than the previous fuel used.
is there a source of this information ?
or is this an unevidenced assumption

the fuel rules from 2014 have never had an upper limit to knock resistance (octane number)
Refare to:-. Re: Mercedes power unit hardware and software. post of 18 Jan 2023 06:47. "According to finer technical points 'Thomas' (Hywel), they concentrated on running/pushing the engine harder on the new homologated fuel configuration knowing that although the new fuel calorific value was lower, the knock resistance was higher".

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
97
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: Engines and Fuels Loophole

Post

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:33 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:02 am
The 2022 specification fuel is far more resistance to knock than the previous fuel used.
is there a source of this information ?
or is this an unevidenced assumption

the fuel rules from 2014 have never had an upper limit to knock resistance (octane number)
It's common knowledge that increased alcohol content increases knock resistance at the expense of energy density. The ethanol itself has a higher octane rating than gasoline so when you mix them, the effect is to increase the octane rating of the blend.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
594
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Engines and Fuels Loophole

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:57 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:02 am
1. The 2022 specification fuel is far more resistance to knock than the previous fuel used.
2. It's common knowledge that increased alcohol content increases knock resistance at the expense of energy density.
3. The ethanol itself has a higher octane rating than gasoline so when you mix them, the effect is to increase the octane rating of the blend.
1. it's unlikely the 2022 fuel has far more resistance to knock (it's not very different from the 2021 2020 2019 etc fuel)

2. at lean mixtures ethanol has a low octane rating - so won't increase knock resistance (of high-octane gasoline)

3. we don't know alcohol has a higher octane rating than what the FIA implies is gasoline (eg 140 octane is legal)
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
JordanMugen
68
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: Engines and Fuels Loophole

Post

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:32 pm
3. we don't know alcohol has a higher octane rating than what the FIA wants us to see as gasoline (150 octane is legal)
Why not make a rule that all the cars must run on "pump gas" from a single supplier which is supplied by the organisers, like in NASCAR? No need to cart special blends around the US (or world), NASCAR will bring it along for you?

Or is "spec" the wrong path for Formula One? ...Even though spec part rules already apply to the ECU, wheels, tyres, wheel covers and halo. :wtf:

So much if you want to run customised Goodyear tyres on customised Apptech rims, you may not do so, should the same apply to desires to run customised Mobil or Petronas fuel similarly? Tough. Aramco pump fuel for everyone?

User avatar
Big Tea
97
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Engines and Fuels Loophole

Post

JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:39 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:32 pm
3. we don't know alcohol has a higher octane rating than what the FIA wants us to see as gasoline (150 octane is legal)
Why not make a rule that all the cars must run on "pump gas" from a single supplier which is supplied by the organisers, like in NASCAR? No need to cart special blends around the US (or world), NASCAR will bring it along for you?

Or is "spec" the wrong path for Formula One? ...Even though spec part rules already apply to the ECU, wheels, tyres, wheel covers and halo. :wtf:

So much if you want to run customised Goodyear tyres on customised Apptech rims, you may not do so, should the same apply to desires to run customised Mobil or Petronas fuel similarly? Tough. Aramco pump fuel for everyone?
They would lose all the other petroleum sponsorship then
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
97
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: Engines and Fuels Loophole

Post

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:32 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:57 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:02 am
1. The 2022 specification fuel is far more resistance to knock than the previous fuel used.
2. It's common knowledge that increased alcohol content increases knock resistance at the expense of energy density.
3. The ethanol itself has a higher octane rating than gasoline so when you mix them, the effect is to increase the octane rating of the blend.
1. it's unlikely the 2022 fuel has far more resistance to knock (it's not very different from the 2021 2020 2019 etc fuel)
So is that why all the manufacturers lost 40-50bhp and publically admitted to struggling with the "not very different" fuel? :?

Mercedes: https://www.racefans.net/2022/02/06/new ... des-admit/

Honda: https://www.planetf1.com/news/honda-dif ... 2022-fuel/