2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

[Ben1980]

Siedl really liked Key.

[mwillems]

Key might be very good, it could just be they weren't the right people for our structure, who knows. The output was middling at Mclaren, but he will be seen as bad because we didn't continue our upward trend, but it would be wrong to pin it all on him. And we are a year away from understanding if this new structure is a better one, even then it is muddied as it is aided by a new Sim, Wind Tunnel and Composites facility.

If you look at this season, we could have started with the Baku spec and had the Aus/Silv spec by Baku and that is on the Aero team for not spotting the floor differences earlier, not Key. If that would have happened, who knows what we'd be saying now.

Nothing is ever clear cut, we just like nicely packaged easy answers so we can apportion blame/success. Rarely is it ever so easy.

Best to just thank Key for his efforts and move on and hope the next phase works well.

[vinu.l.t]

I agree that we can't pin all the blame on Key, but in terms of car performance he has the overall accountability. The more concerning suggestions are around him being too "negative" or conservative in his approach which might have been stifling for the likes of Peter Prodromou and other potentially talented employees in the organisation. One thing Red Bull and Newey have done well has been to nurture talent in their technical departments and getting them to the point that when high profile figures depart they have suitable replacements lined up.

[Ground Effect]

Key might be very good, it could just be they weren't the right people for our structure, who knows. The output was middling at Mclaren, but he will be seen as bad because we didn't continue our upward trend, but it would be wrong to pin it all on him. And we are a year away from understanding if this new structure is a better one, even then it is muddied as it is aided by a new Sim, Wind Tunnel and Composites facility.

If you look at this season, we could have started with the Baku spec and had the Aus/Silv spec by Baku and that is on the Aero team for not spotting the floor differences earlier, not Key. If that would have happened, who knows what we'd be saying now.

Nothing is ever clear cut, we just like nicely packaged easy answers so we can apportion blame/success. Rarely is it ever so easy.

Best to just thank Key for his efforts and move on and hope the next phase works well.

I agree, if would be extremely harsh to blame Key for everything, but I'd like to believe the right decision was made. Maybe he turned down initial ideas from the aero guys who wanted to go in another direction, or maybe he just didn't agree with the new Technical structure of bringing in Sanchez. Either way, we've seen Zak isn't afraid to wield the axe, if Prod was the problem, he'd have been out by now.

[mwillems]

Key might be very good, it could just be they weren't the right people for our structure, who knows. The output was middling at Mclaren, but he will be seen as bad because we didn't continue our upward trend, but it would be wrong to pin it all on him. And we are a year away from understanding if this new structure is a better one, even then it is muddied as it is aided by a new Sim, Wind Tunnel and Composites facility.

If you look at this season, we could have started with the Baku spec and had the Aus/Silv spec by Baku and that is on the Aero team for not spotting the floor differences earlier, not Key. If that would have happened, who knows what we'd be saying now.

Nothing is ever clear cut, we just like nicely packaged easy answers so we can apportion blame/success. Rarely is it ever so easy.

Best to just thank Key for his efforts and move on and hope the next phase works well.

I agree, if would be extremely harsh to blame Key for everything, but I'd like to believe the right decision was made. Maybe he turned down initial ideas from the aero guys who wanted to go in another direction, or maybe he just didn't agree with the new Technical structure of bringing in Sanchez. Either way, we've seen Zak isn't afraid to wield the axe, if Prod was the problem, he'd have been out by now.

I agree also, the signings of Marshall and Sanchez are from top teams with very relevant and strong ideas and with a lot of success. These are exciting signings and if they can work together well, to provide the right balance of considerations that results in the right design of car for a given season, then whats not to be excited about.

I feels right that this new approach can do more than Key alone could in his position, and that now there is no excuse for the separate directorates if specific areas of the car are not up to scratch.

[djos]

Just having a think about the Honda + Aston deal. Tbh I think it’s a bullet dodged for Mclaren.

Honda just aren’t the car company they used to be, just look at their sales numbers in Australia, they sold less than 900 cars last month (while overall car sales hit a record high). Back in 2007 they sold more than 60,000 cars that year, this year they’ll be lucky to sell 6,000.

I don’t know what their global sales look like, but the reason for their massive fall from grace here is quite simple, they stopped being innovative and making great cars that ppl want to buy.

IMO, Honda will be dead by 2030.

[genarro]

Just having a think about the Honda + Aston deal. Tbh I think it’s a bullet dodged for Mclaren.

Honda just aren’t the car company they used to be, just look at their sales numbers in Australia, they sold less than 900 cars last month (while overall car sales hit a record high). Back in 2007 they sold more than 60,000 cars that year, this year they’ll be lucky to sell 6,000.

I don’t know what their global sales look like, but the reason for their massive fall from grace here is quite simple, they stopped being innovative and making great cars that ppl want to buy.

IMO, Honda will be dead by 2030.

They wont be dead but I agree with you. Honda has a lot of problems, like RBPT poached a lot of their staff and Aston will have a big task of building the whole package (suspension, gearbox which they have never done).

McLaren doesn't have a problem with the engine. So why put another variable in the mix. Firstly the have to make a great chassis/aero package then we will see about the engine.

[hudnut]

Just having a think about the Honda + Aston deal. Tbh I think it’s a bullet dodged for Mclaren.

Honda just aren’t the car company they used to be, just look at their sales numbers in Australia, they sold less than 900 cars last month (while overall car sales hit a record high). Back in 2007 they sold more than 60,000 cars that year, this year they’ll be lucky to sell 6,000.

I don’t know what their global sales look like, but the reason for their massive fall from grace here is quite simple, they stopped being innovative and making great cars that ppl want to buy.

IMO, Honda will be dead by 2030.

I reckon a contributing factor in Aus was being the first brand in Aus to move to non-negotiable fixed pricing in 2021 with dealers becoming selling agents, and removing lower priced models.

[djos]

Even before that, the range of models they sold seemed to shrink on a weekly basis.

I recall as a teen in the 90’s lusting over Civic and Integra type R’s, heck even the Prelude was a nice car. They had a good range of family and high end luxury/sports cars too.

Post the GFC in 2008, Honda seemed to suffer permanent brain damage and the majority of their cars became boring Econo-boxes.

[mwillems]

Just having a think about the Honda + Aston deal. Tbh I think it’s a bullet dodged for Mclaren.

Honda just aren’t the car company they used to be, just look at their sales numbers in Australia, they sold less than 900 cars last month (while overall car sales hit a record high). Back in 2007 they sold more than 60,000 cars that year, this year they’ll be lucky to sell 6,000.

I don’t know what their global sales look like, but the reason for their massive fall from grace here is quite simple, they stopped being innovative and making great cars that ppl want to buy.

IMO, Honda will be dead by 2030.

They are a fairly stable company with revenues exceed $125b, cars are just one part of their business. I doubt they will go anywhere soon and EVs are going to change everything anyway and this is apart of their issue, they haven't really committed to EVs yet, despite leading the way with the Hybrids. It makes no sense to be honest. In the EU their sales have dropped to 40% of what they were in 2016, but if you look at the total number of New car registrations in the EU, that number is now also only around 50% of what it was in 2016 so, there is a decline but it is largely in line with the market and not Honda specific.

[djos]

I did mean Honda automotive, not the wider organisation.

TBH, they are so late to the EV game that they will be IMO irrelevant or dead by 2030. Tesla + the Chinese and Korean EV’s will wipe them out.

[mwillems]

I did mean Honda automotive, not the wider organisation.

TBH, they are so late to the EV game that they will be IMO irrelevant or dead by 2030. Tesla + the Chinese and Korean EV’s will wipe them out.

Like I say, their declines in Europe are just in line with the industries, I can't see them going. They are getting into EVs now so they should be fine and providing engines to F1 for a while

[diffuser]

Just having a think about the Honda + Aston deal. Tbh I think it’s a bullet dodged for Mclaren.

Honda just aren’t the car company they used to be, just look at their sales numbers in Australia, they sold less than 900 cars last month (while overall car sales hit a record high). Back in 2007 they sold more than 60,000 cars that year, this year they’ll be lucky to sell 6,000.

I don’t know what their global sales look like, but the reason for their massive fall from grace here is quite simple, they stopped being innovative and making great cars that ppl want to buy.

IMO, Honda will be dead by 2030.

Talk about conflating issues. Apples and Oranges bud.

Remember how sensitive Honda is to their car business. If they were struggling, they'd pull out of F1. If they're doubling down, business is good. Maybe, F1 is helping that business.

[diffuser]

Just having a think about the Honda + Aston deal. Tbh I think it’s a bullet dodged for Mclaren.

Honda just aren’t the car company they used to be, just look at their sales numbers in Australia, they sold less than 900 cars last month (while overall car sales hit a record high). Back in 2007 they sold more than 60,000 cars that year, this year they’ll be lucky to sell 6,000.

I don’t know what their global sales look like, but the reason for their massive fall from grace here is quite simple, they stopped being innovative and making great cars that ppl want to buy.

IMO, Honda will be dead by 2030.

They wont be dead but I agree with you. Honda has a lot of problems, like RBPT poached a lot of their staff and Aston will have a big task of building the whole package (suspension, gearbox which they have never done).

McLaren doesn't have a problem with the engine. So why put another variable in the mix. Firstly the have to make a great chassis/aero package then we will see about the engine.

Thing about Honda is all their F1 design people are in Japan. Whenever there was a major problem with the PU, it would be sent back to Japan. I wouldn't put much stock in the talent of the people they had in the UK.

As long as you have stable regs in the PU, you don't need to be a works team to win. With the new PU regs, works teams will get an edge for the first 2 years or so.

[MrGapes]

- Neil Oatley

1:10:00 has some stuff on current team.