2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[dans79]

What evidence is there to say the FIA asked for the place to be given back?

f1tv world feed, lap 5

Ted Kravitz "confirmation from Mercedes just now they were offered instructed what's the word persuaded to give that place back to Norris"

10 seconds later they displayed the no further investigation needed graphic.

[RZS10]

[snip]
We are having the same discussion in the Mclaren thread [...]
But the question I have been trying to ask is what determines when an overtake is complete?
[...] it does look inconsistent and odd, but the stewards must have applied some logic to it that made sense to them.

What do you think this logic might be?

Ideally the discussion of the incident would be in the race thread, then it wouldn't happen in multiples

I honestly do not want to be the judge of what is fine or not, i just try to look at the footage and make sense of it.

As you write, there seems to be little in the way of consistency, but who knows, maybe there was a discussion in some driver briefing and they said "hey what George did wasn't on" ... but if that did not happen, then this should have been fine as well.

I cannot explain the possible logic behind their decision, maybe they can read minds (just like some here) and knew his true intentions (he never really wanted to make the corner), maybe he just bailed too early and should have stayed next to George until the very last moment ... who knows.
Had it come to a penalty at least there would have been a two sentence decision document.

It also isn't clear what a completed overtake is, looking back at Monza for example, after Leclerc overtook Sainz into Rettifilo, Sainz was attacking Leclerc into della Roggia.
Sainz completely missed the braking point, cut the entire chicane and forced Leclerc to cut the chicane as well - They were approaching the chicane side by side, Sainz slightly ahead and no one intervened.

But then again, it was two Ferraris fighting in Italy.

[mwillems]

[snip]
We are having the same discussion in the Mclaren thread [...]
But the question I have been trying to ask is what determines when an overtake is complete?
[...] it does look inconsistent and odd, but the stewards must have applied some logic to it that made sense to them.

What do you think this logic might be?

Ideally the discussion of the incident would be in the race thread, then it wouldn't happen in multiples

I honestly do not want to be the judge of what is fine or not, i just try to look at the footage and make sense of it.

As you write, there seems to be little in the way of consistency, but who knows, maybe there was a discussion in some driver briefing and they said "hey what George did wasn't on" ... but if that did not happen, then this should have been fine as well.

I cannot explain the possible logic behind their decision, maybe they can read minds (just like some here) and knew his true intentions (he never really wanted to make the corner), maybe he just bailed too early and should have stayed next to George until the very last moment ... who knows.
Had it come to a penalty at least there would have been a two sentence decision document.

It also isn't clear what a completed overtake is, looking back at Monza for example, after Leclerc overtook Sainz into Rettifilo, Sainz was attacking Leclerc into della Roggia.
Sainz completely missed the braking point, cut the entire chicane and forced Leclerc to cut the chicane as well - They were approaching the chicane side by side, Sainz slightly ahead and no one intervened.

But then again, it was two Ferraris fighting in Italy.

Yes you are right about the race thread..! But a scurrilous suggestion of the Red car in Italy. Surely not.

It's a question that... I won't say will not be answered. It will in different ways, both in here and on track! It is part of racing because you need a certain amount of leeway to add common sense in.

But sometimes things like this just jump out and look different. As I say, it is the general lenience shown on lap 1 to encourage hard racing which was not shown here that stood out to me and all I've got is that the two drivers constituted a single move/challenge to the stewards.

It does surprise me though that there is no suggestion of what a completed overtake is, even an outline.

[dans79]

It does surprise me though that there is no suggestion of what a completed overtake is, even an outline.

some people would tell you that's intentional so the FIA/Stewards have leeway to change or not change the outcome!

[mwillems]

It does surprise me though that there is no suggestion of what a completed overtake is, even an outline.

some people would tell you that's intentional so the FIA/Stewards have leeway to change or not change the outcome!

To be fair I'm not sure it would make a difference. A Lasting Advantage is a moving target but still documented, let's not mention safety cars. Everything in the FIA docs is very much like the pirates code, more of a guideline than actual rules really.

Did Hamilton also pass Perez off track later and then not get penalised? Does anyone have footage of that at all to compare?

Edit: No matter I have seen it. Totally inconsistent.

[ringo]

No hamilton did not pass perez off track. Perez as usual doesnt give enough room and hamilton made sure to avoid him.
It's best to avoid damaging your car and thats what keeps hamilton scoring points every race.
As for the lap 1 thing with Norris. The FIA just messed that one up. It's just the plain and simple explanation.
Hamilton was past Norris. And had full control of his car on the track, even following the flank of russel's car with steering inputs. Russel did not leave space and hamilton had 2 choices. Run over the curb and possibly slide and collide with Russel or take evasive action.
Norris should not even have factored.

[AR3-GP]

No hamilton did not pass perez off track. Perez as usual doesnt give enough room and hamilton made sure to avoid him.
It's best to avoid damaging your car and thats what keeps hamilton scoring points every race.

Watch the replays from Perez's car. Perez left room and Hamilton gasses it to the opposite side of the curb anyway in order to gain the lead into the next right hander.

[ringo]

Why not look on another video from outside the car?
There is a reason why the stewards didnt even care to look on it.

[trinidefender]

Maybe this is the how the stewards got back at Hamilton for punting Piastri off the track at Monza......ok jokes aside...

I keep rewatching the overtake and subsequent corner and this whole thing seems very grey to me and, as evidenced by other people's comments here, it seems I'm not alone in this thinking.

There's a lot of ambiguity over when an overtake is completed. When a car is considered "alongside" for the purposes of if a car is require room either on the inside or outside of a corner etc.

There's so much inconsistency with the FIA race direction and stewarding (the entirety of 2021 for many teams being an example). Unless the FIA really sit down and work out defined concepts as far as what is and isn't allowed then fans will continue to get upset and create a bad image for the sport and rightly so.

As far as this incident goes there can even be the alternate case that Hamilton was well alongside Russel at some point and forced Hamilton off and Russel should have been penalised.

[trinidefender]

Maybe this is the how the stewards got back at Hamilton for punting Piastri off the track at Monza......ok jokes aside...

I keep rewatching the overtake and subsequent corner and this whole thing seems very grey to me and, as evidenced by other people's comments here, it seems I'm not alone in this thinking.

There's a lot of ambiguity over when an overtake is completed. When a car is considered "alongside" for the purposes of if a car is require room either on the inside or outside of a corner etc.

There's so much inconsistency with the FIA race direction and stewarding (the entirety of 2021 for many teams being an example). Unless the FIA really sit down and work out defined concepts as far as what is and isn't allowed then fans will continue to get upset and create a bad image for the sport and rightly so.

As far as this incident goes there can even be the alternate case that Hamilton was well alongside Russel at some point and forced Hamilton off and Russel should have been penalised.

As a continuation of my point above....

On the other hand if Hamilton wasn't entitled to room and Russel was justified in taking the apex of the corner that meant that Hamilton should have backed out and had he backed out of that move he would then have been neck and neck with Norris going into the next corner as Norris was right behind Russel.

If that's the case then a fair argument can be made that Hamilton did gain an advantage leaving the track and against both Russel and Norris.

Considering he was made to give the place back to Russel, indicating Russel was entitled to the apex, then maybe that was the view taken by Mercedes and the stewards and that's why he was also instructed to give the the place back to Norris.

[organic]

@trinidefender I'm pretty sure anything pre-2022 shouldn't be looked at for precedent in terms of wheel-to-wheel penalties as they attempted to redefine what is allowed in terms of running others off at the end of 2021 after the Verstappen/Hamilton incidents. Not saying they've done that or whatever

No clue on the Russell/ham/Norris. Too grey for me

[randolf]

[...] Hamilton’s move was so extreme that I would want to see telemetry of his speed there vs next lap because I think Stewards basically saw that he passed Norris because he had no intention of making the corner.

I’m not saying he wasn’t going to make it but his speed was high and he just went straight very quickly after George allegedly pushed him.

If you check the far offboard replay which was posted here as a gif you can see that Hamilton seemingly had no overspeed relative to Russell from a certain point onwards, he was very likely capable of making the corner whilst already having completed the overtake on Norris.

Arguably the precedent for this move being perfectly fine was Lewis' own team mate in Spain (highlight vid as a refresher if needed)

That was Russell's position relative to Piastri, the only explanation of why Russell did not have to give the position back is that it was deemed he had completed the overtake:
https://i.imgur.com/g0WolyE.png

He bailed before he was actually ran out of road, a bit before the halfway point between apexes:
https://i.imgur.com/9UdTAGF.png

He then went around the bollard and kept the position ahead of Piastri.

And now for comparison:
https://i.imgur.com/3W1YyZq.png
I'm relatively certain Norris has no part of his car alongside of Lewis from this point onward, if Russell was deemed to have completed the overtake on Piastri in Spain, then this is certainly the case here.

From the gif mentioned above: a few frames in which Hamilton's position to Russell doesn't change significantly, the logical conclusion is that he has shed any extra speed and is not going significantly faster than Russell, if at all.
https://i.imgur.com/snFpBij.gif
The consequence of that is that he would have been fully capable of making the corner if given the space.

He then bails before he is actually ran out of road, a bit before the halfway point between apexes:
https://i.imgur.com/zMUfqXR.png

He absolutely had to give the position back to Russell, of course - Norris? Not so sure, but definitely not if the FIA/stewards/race control were consistent.

Adding speed data from F1.

You can see the speeds carried by both drivers. Somone has to help us understand how Lewis planned to make the corner while carrying so much speed.

This is frame by frame every second (or 2). At one point, he had almost 50kph more than George.

First frame is from the point of braking.








Lewis doesn't make the corner and starts to throttle again.

[trinidefender]

@trinidefender I'm pretty sure anything pre-2022 shouldn't be looked at for precedent in terms of wheel-to-wheel penalties as they attempted to redefine what is allowed in terms of running others off at the end of 2021 after the Verstappen/Hamilton incidents. Not saying they've done that or whatever

No clue on the Russell/ham/Norris. Too grey for me

I wasn't using using anything pre 2022 as precedent for what is or isn't allowed. I was only using it to show that the FIA has a history of being very inconsistent in its stewarding.

They say they've tried to make it more black and white but to me it seems to me that the progress that's been made is akin to being shot by a small bullet instead of a big bullet. They still have a long way to go to not being shot at all as far as consistency.

Frankly I have little faith in the FIA as an organisation as a whole. From the handling of spygate in 2007 and engine gate in 2019 to the entire season of inconsistent penalties/stewarding of 2021 culminating in that farce of a finale all to avoid a finish under a safety car (I don't blame red bull, they are innocent in that incident) my faith in the FIA has been dissolved. I love the sport in spite of the FIA, not because of it.

Back to the topic at hand, I agree. It's too grey for me to be very confident which way I view the situation.

[organic]

@trinidefender I'm pretty sure anything pre-2022 shouldn't be looked at for precedent in terms of wheel-to-wheel penalties as they attempted to redefine what is allowed in terms of running others off at the end of 2021 after the Verstappen/Hamilton incidents. Not saying they've done that or whatever

No clue on the Russell/ham/Norris. Too grey for me

I wasn't using using anything pre 2022 as precedent for what is or isn't allowed. I was only using it to show that the FIA has a history of being very inconsistent in its stewarding.

They say they've tried to make it more black and white but to me it seems to me that the progress that's been made is akin to being shot by a small bullet instead of a big bullet. They still have a long way to go to not being shot at all as far as consistency.

Frankly I have little faith in the FIA as an organisation as a whole. From the handling of spygate in 2007 and engine gate in 2019 to the entire season of inconsistent penalties/stewarding of 2021 culminating in that farce of a finale all to avoid a finish under a safety car (I don't blame red bull, they are innocent in that incident) my faith in the FIA has been dissolved. I love the sport in spite of the FIA, not because of it.

Back to the topic at hand, I agree. It's too grey for me to be very confident which way I view the situation.

Agree with you on all fronts there. Wasn't trying to contradict you in my first reply just adding some info that I feel is important

[basti313]

Hamilton was past Norris. And had full control of his car on the track, even following the flank of russel's car with steering inputs.

<personal stuff removed>
Everyone including Hamilton Tot and the team was happy about how the first corner was handled.

He was alongside Norris, when he would have needed to brake. The only reason he came alongside Russel was that he missed the braking point and gained nearly three car length on Russel.
<personal stuff removed>