2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

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arkbird wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2024 11:14 pm
This current era is not the most interesting to put it lightly but what would really tick me off is if we never find out what makes the Redbull so fast. Several years after these regulations end I really hope someone spills the beans because it's absolutely absurd no other teams can't figure it out despite all the Redbull brain drain.
A lot of things were obvious from the start: more rearwards centre of pressure for the floor compared to other teams (less balance shift), aggressive lateral diffuser kicks but minimal (ride height sensitive) vertical diffuser kicks to start with, iceskates to manage floor edges, reinforcement ribs to manage floor flex inside the bodywork, large sidepods to manage tyre wakes (and have space to fit the floor supports inside the car inside of using wires), bib spring etc.

Other teams had these too to some extent of course, but overall it's most likely simply well executed surfacing (both above and below the car) and good pressure distribution control we suspect. The front wing is, all the same, relatively basic.

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SiLo
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Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

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JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2024 10:45 am
arkbird wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2024 11:14 pm
This current era is not the most interesting to put it lightly but what would really tick me off is if we never find out what makes the Redbull so fast. Several years after these regulations end I really hope someone spills the beans because it's absolutely absurd no other teams can't figure it out despite all the Redbull brain drain.
A lot of things were obvious from the start: more rearwards centre of pressure for the floor compared to other teams (less balance shift), aggressive lateral diffuser kicks but minimal (ride height sensitive) vertical diffuser kicks to start with, iceskates to manage floor edges, reinforcement ribs to manage floor flex inside the bodywork, large sidepods to manage tyre wakes (and have space to fit the floor supports inside the car inside of using wires), bib spring etc.

Other teams had these too to some extent of course, but overall it's most likely simply well executed surfacing (both above and below the car) and good pressure distribution control we suspect. The front wing is, all the same, relatively basic.
I always felt like the centre of pressure for the Red Bull appeared further back due to where the sidepods got wider, but I could be entirely wrong.
Felipe Baby!

Waz
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Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

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It's the tires. Teams drive to a delta almost entirely to manage tires.

The big advantage of the RBR is keeping the tires alive while lapping quickly. Any team that figures that out is golden.

It's not a coincidence that the most predictable seasons have all been since Pirelli (apart from 2012)

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SiLo
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Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

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Waz wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2024 3:27 pm
It's the tires. Teams drive to a delta almost entirely to manage tires.

The big advantage of the RBR is keeping the tires alive while lapping quickly. Any team that figures that out is golden.

It's not a coincidence that the most predictable seasons have all been since Pirelli (apart from 2012)
I don't like how important tyres have become vs previous years.
Felipe Baby!

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Vanja #66
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Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

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Waz wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2024 3:27 pm
The big advantage of the RBR is keeping the tires alive while lapping quickly. Any team that figures that out is golden.
All teams know how to do that - find more downforce
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#Aerogimli
#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

Vinlarr89
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Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

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Even if all teams caught up to red bull. They would all still be driving to deltas. The tyres absolutely govern the lack of racing in the current series format.

As for comments made about Ferrari not maximising the 2022 advantage. Well I think your forgetting all the bitching that went on to get the rules changed that lead to that concept getting destroyed.

Waz
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Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2024 7:17 pm
Waz wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2024 3:27 pm
The big advantage of the RBR is keeping the tires alive while lapping quickly. Any team that figures that out is golden.
All teams know how to do that - find more downforce
We both know it isn't that simple. The tires have a limit on the downforce they can sustain.

Qualifying shows us the teams are all close on outright speed. So downforce isn't the biggest difference.

Keeping these Pirelli's alive and in the operating window is the complex part.

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Vanja #66
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Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

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Waz wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2024 8:44 pm
The tires have a limit on the downforce they can sustain.
This is completely incorrect. I'm very curious at how you came at this conclusion, though :)

Waz wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2024 8:44 pm
Qualifying shows us the teams are all close on outright speed. So downforce isn't the biggest difference.

Keeping these Pirelli's alive and in the operating window is the complex part.
You are right, peak downforce in Q isn't the biggest difference, but at the same time Q pace does not tell the full story for the race. In Jeddah, RB20 wasn't the outright fastest car in corners, but it did make up time to 3 closest cars on straights. But as much as we can dissect this topic and look for nuance, ultimately it really comes down to more downforce. Assuming the same PU power levels, optimal tyre use (observed simply through exhibited tyre life) and same braking and traction capabilities of any two cars, the one with

- more downforce for the same drag level
- more downforce across the full range of ride heights during the race
- more downforce across all cornering conditions during the race (slow, medium, high speed corners, wind, fast chicanes, short and long corners, etc)

will do better in the race. The simple explanation is this - two cars of the same weight are taking every corner in the same way, speed etc, but one of them is generating more downforce in every corner. That car is generating more vertical load on the contact patch and in turn allows less slip on its tyres even though the centrifugal load is the same as other car. Less slip means less wear and better control over tyre temperature and both of those are very important to keep these Pirelli tyres alive in the race. Bridgestones were famously degrading a lot less in their time and it was often down to thread wear before changing a set.

To use a signature quote of @jjn9128: "There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#Aerogimli
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chrisc90
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Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

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Pirelli should just bring a compound or 2 softer tyres. Wouldnt last as long and would force more stops = more strategy and options.

Jeez - even the medium can do near enough 75% of a race now and some even do a full race on the hard.

stewie325
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Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2024 7:17 pm
Waz wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2024 3:27 pm
The big advantage of the RBR is keeping the tires alive while lapping quickly. Any team that figures that out is golden.
All teams know how to do that - find more downforce
I found it interesting that in the technical updates from Jeddah, most teams were talking about downforce, but Red Bull kept talking about drag.

But I agree with above sentiments that it's now become a tire formula. Wache has cooked up some magic with his knowledge of tires to the point where RB can completely forgo qualy speed in favour of race pace. It makes me wonder how much quicker RB could be in qualy if they prioritised 1 lap pace. Perhaps that might not work, because their entire mechanical/aero strategy is to avoid heating the tires quickly.

The dominant Mercs on the other hand could easily dominate both qualy and the race by turning up their engine. That's why I think there's more merit to Verstappen's performances. Perez has shown it's difficult to perform well in qualy with this set-up.

When Merc tested their new extreme anti-dive suspension recently, both drivers said it ruined the handling of the car, and they reverted to an old set-up. What if RB have been using a driver unfriendly set-up the last 2 years, but Verstappen has been able to perform around it. We can only speculate until someone writes an autobiography.

PapayaFan481
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Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2024 9:46 pm
Waz wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2024 8:44 pm
The tires have a limit on the downforce they can sustain.
This is completely incorrect. I'm very curious at how you came at this conclusion, though :)
Didn't Pirelli themselves say that they were concerned about the levels of downforce becoming too high for their tyres at one point?

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Vanja #66
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Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

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PapayaFan481 wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2024 9:17 am
Didn't Pirelli themselves say that they were concerned about the levels of downforce becoming too high for their tyres at one point?
The original post was commenting on keeping tyres alive during the race and how RB is ahead of others in that regard. Ironically, on that weekend RB suffered a lot with tyres in the race - by choosing too low downforce levels.

On the other hand, of course these tyres, like all tyres, have a limit on vertical load they can take while cornering (link problem-solution), but I didn't get an impression this is what original poster was implying.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#Aerogimli
#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie