2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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ringo
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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organic wrote:
28 Apr 2024, 04:24
dialtone wrote:
28 Apr 2024, 04:15
organic wrote: Yeah all of Max's cars have been great :roll: recency bias is crazy
Remind me, were people saying Max is the GOAT 4 years ago when his car was mediocre?

Because I think now people are saying that he improved massively now. How's that recency bias going?
It was suggested that Max hasn't proven that he doesn't need great cars to be good. Yet he has driven less-than-great cars for majority of his career in F1. 6 seasons from 2015-2020. And during that time was considered a generational talent already by many who I would consider more knowledgeable and experienced than you - Marko, Lauda, wolff, brundle etc

Even before he'd turned a wheel on F1 all of the top orgs (Ferrari, RB, Merc) were bending over backwards for him. So the writing was on the wall in terms of talent level.

All of this has been proven in crappy cars. But I'm saying the recency bias is that recently he hasn't had to deal with that so it's easily forgotten /discounted!

I just don't see a seb situation being possible. Seb was pushed close at times by Webber who is a decent driver but I think everyone would agree not brilliant. The signs were there already, and I think the way that other drivers like Hamilton/Alonso regarded him at the time told a story. You don't see that disdain from other drivers now - if anything the opposite. The likes of ham, Russell, Lec recognize that max is the benchmark
Not to side track but Seb was more complete than Max in is earlier career. More mature and more technical.
There is some truth to what you say in terms of Max's talent being known, but it does not mean Merc have any real data on him.
They could benefit from him by weakening Redbull and of course the information and experience he brings, his 3 titles, his orange army, and of course his pace and consistency.
Compared to Max, ignoring actual racing and speed, George is a poor church mouse. No one really knows him, he has no great following outside of friends and family, and has a crumb of silverware. Mercedes need to fill the vacuum that will be left by Hamilton marketing and value wise. The Orange army can gobble up all the merchandise and follow all the social media .
For Sure!!

TeamKoolGreen
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Peter Windsor said on a podcast recently that he sent 3 messages to Toto on behalf of an extremely talented F1 engineer. Who is available and has asked Peter to try and contact him. And he has some ideas about what could be wrong with the car. And he's received no replies back.

30:50 minutes in


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atanatizante
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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organic wrote:
28 Apr 2024, 17:02
atanatizante wrote:
28 Apr 2024, 16:46
Further info regarding the tests results after the first 5 races and about the Miami upgrades:

[...]
Is most of this info from an article?
I just gathered the info from various YT channels and just put the pieces together :)
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
Jesus

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ringo
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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@teamcoolgreen There are a lot of new and interesting sciences out there on aerodynamics that can be and maybe applied to F1 development.

Artificial Neural Networks can be applied to the floor sensors to better understand the real life loads and movements on the floor and its structure.
There is aslo Kalman filtering techniques to simplify modeling of load estimation.
These are applied to helicopter and wind turbine blades to analyze non axial flows and impact on the blades.

Mercedes do have issues with their tools and closing the loop between CFD, WT and Track Testing and its easy to see why they can be left behind technology wise if they stand still and beleive that their tools are good enough.

Based on what they say in their post race debriefs, they seem to be doing development and investigstions the "old fashioned" way, and manually.
For Sure!!

Venturiation
Venturiation
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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organic wrote:
28 Apr 2024, 04:24
dialtone wrote:
28 Apr 2024, 04:15
organic wrote: Yeah all of Max's cars have been great :roll: recency bias is crazy
Remind me, were people saying Max is the GOAT 4 years ago when his car was mediocre?

Because I think now people are saying that he improved massively now. How's that recency bias going?
It was suggested that Max hasn't proven that he doesn't need great cars to be good. Yet he has driven less-than-great cars for majority of his career in F1. 6 seasons from 2015-2020. And during that time was considered a generational talent already by many who I would consider more knowledgeable and experienced than you - Marko, Lauda, wolff, brundle etc

Even before he'd turned a wheel on F1 all of the top orgs (Ferrari, RB, Merc) were bending over backwards for him. So the writing was on the wall in terms of talent level.

All of this has been proven in crappy cars. But I'm saying the recency bias is that recently he hasn't had to deal with that so it's easily forgotten /discounted!

I just don't see a seb situation being possible. Seb was pushed close at times by Webber who is a decent driver but I think everyone would agree not brilliant. The signs were there already, and I think the way that other drivers like Hamilton/Alonso regarded him at the time told a story. You don't see that disdain from other drivers now - if anything the opposite. The likes of ham, Russell, Lec recognize that max is the benchmark
Max is the banchmark only when having a car 2 seconds faster than everyone else

Just look at him during 2023 and 2024 crying in the radio when he is behind anyone
In 2021 newey said they had the best car, and with that he only won thanks to the fia and the budget cap breach , he exploded under pressure in the last few races

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organic
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Motorsport Italy reports that Merc has made contact with Adrian and that they will meet for discussions after Miami.

This indicates Adrian has not made any decisions about his future.

Bring in Newey, Max ?

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ringo
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Looks like Newey is shopping around.
Or..Totto is having Lewis withdrawal symptoms, or pressure from the Board is leading him to be desperate and clutch at silver bullets like Newey and Max.
Newey would be a good match for the team if they really have a great engine for 2026.
But i dont think it's somewhere he would want to end his career. And with same driver if Max goes there. Might as well he stays at redbull.

There is also the possiblity Newey was involved in the scandal and wants to bail out before the investigation points to him. Maybe Horner isn't the only one with a very comfy PA. :lol:
For Sure!!

Dunlay
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Venturiation wrote:
28 Apr 2024, 18:12
organic wrote:
28 Apr 2024, 04:24
dialtone wrote:
28 Apr 2024, 04:15


Remind me, were people saying Max is the GOAT 4 years ago when his car was mediocre?

Because I think now people are saying that he improved massively now. How's that recency bias going?
It was suggested that Max hasn't proven that he doesn't need great cars to be good. Yet he has driven less-than-great cars for majority of his career in F1. 6 seasons from 2015-2020. And during that time was considered a generational talent already by many who I would consider more knowledgeable and experienced than you - Marko, Lauda, wolff, brundle etc

Even before he'd turned a wheel on F1 all of the top orgs (Ferrari, RB, Merc) were bending over backwards for him. So the writing was on the wall in terms of talent level.

All of this has been proven in crappy cars. But I'm saying the recency bias is that recently he hasn't had to deal with that so it's easily forgotten /discounted!

I just don't see a seb situation being possible. Seb was pushed close at times by Webber who is a decent driver but I think everyone would agree not brilliant. The signs were there already, and I think the way that other drivers like Hamilton/Alonso regarded him at the time told a story. You don't see that disdain from other drivers now - if anything the opposite. The likes of ham, Russell, Lec recognize that max is the benchmark
Max is the banchmark only when having a car 2 seconds faster than everyone else

Just look at him during 2023 and 2024 crying in the radio when he is behind anyone
In 2021 newey said they had the best car, and with that he only won thanks to the fia and the budget cap breach , he exploded under pressure in the last few races
Can we keep it professional? Bashing Max is not going to add anything to the debate. He is undoubtedly and genuinely quick driver worthy of being 2021 champion. His racing skills are undoubtedly on par with the best deivers on the grid.

Elite
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Haha that's rich Dunlay :lol:

Maybe tell the same to the people bashing lewis and George.

And the ones patronising the Merc engineering team and hail max as some sort of Jesus Christ of driving.

The selective outrage is funny but annoying :evil:

Hammerfist
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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TeamKoolGreen wrote:
28 Apr 2024, 17:15
Peter Windsor said on a podcast recently that he sent 3 messages to Toto on behalf of an extremely talented F1 engineer. Who is available and has asked Peter to try and contact him. And he has some ideas about what could be wrong with the car. And he's received no replies back.

30:50 minutes in

Yeah Peter has twice mentioned this. But a lot of people in f1 dont take Peter seriously. I guess that includes Toto.

holeindalip
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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atanatizante wrote:
28 Apr 2024, 16:46
Further info regarding the tests results after the first 5 races and about the Miami upgrades:

1. What they found after the tests:

- The first five races of the season have confirmed that both the drivers and engineers are still dealing with a difficult car that works intermittently and often is peaky and when it does it's not entirely clear why.
- If there is one thing that became crystal clear for Mercedes in Shanghai is the fact that the W15 has no more performance to offer and basically is a weak car.
- They have learned the biggest concern of the W15 is not having solved the lack of stability which is exactly the main deficit of its ground effect predecessors.
- The car is able to generate loads of downforce but only in a very bleak operating window which makes all that downforce unusable breaking down the car's marginal setup window in return making the W15 unpredictable at most in instances.
- The new rear suspension was a solution that the team hoped would widen the car's operating window. However, from the enormous number of tests carried out by the team till now, the platform Mercedes has designed for 2024 still moves a lot and Jeddah proved the most crucial of details as the tests carried out in Saudi Arabia revealed that the car still tends to bounce around corners very much unsettling the car.
- Examining across performances the car has lost its edge on better tire degradation as the W15 has become sort of a butter shredder.

2. What the Miami upgrades are trying to solve:

- As a general observation, the upgrades to the W15 could now be done more easily compared to prior seasons considering that the W15 does not restrict the Brackley technicians in terms of gearbox chassis or suspension structure
- The new components aim to stabilize the car to decrease the floor sensitivity and recover mechanical grip by introducing a new underfloor alongside making changes to its central and side bodywork
- Last year the team made the needed ramifications for the W15, Mercedes now has the wiggle room to introduce aerodynamic upgrades to try and manipulate the car's platform and aerodynamic balance.
- Mercedes introduced its first upgrades in Japan in the form of a front wing revision which went unnoticed by many, the next fine improvement was made in China in the form of an aerodynamic flick behind the Halo to generate vortices improving the car's rear end airflow
- For Miami, the team will introduce aerodynamic parts surrounding the car's underfloor revising the floor's top bottom, and edges to revise the load distribution around the underfloor moving more load towards the car's rear, the work around the floor's aerodynamic seal is to decrease the bottom sensitivity thus improving stability and mechanical grip.
- The floor upgrade also will aid in improving the W15's ability to extract more performance out of its tires significantly improving tire degradation
- The w15 will have revised radiator inlets that give an increased undercut region of the side pods to utilize pressure differences to improve airflow towards the rear of the car.
- Overall these upgrades at Miami are particularly aimed at enhancing the W15's aero-mechanical interaction which has been lacking and stabilizing the aerodynamic performance of the W15 at various speed ranges, especially to the low to mid-corner speeds.
- This upgrade package is believed to produce 2/10 worth of lap time gain but more importantly, the package is aimed at a crucial aspect if we to believe the statements coming out from Brackley the team's priority within this upgrade is to verify the proper correlation between the virtual world and the racetrack:

https://postimages.org/

- The Silver Arrows also hope these upgrades do add performance stability for the most part James Allison revealed
in the team's latest post-race debrief video adding:

https://postimages.org/

- The Brackley-based squad's game plan for 2024 was very much similar to that of Ferraris build a solid foundation first then work on adding performance but since Bahrain, it's been evident that the so-called solid foundation has not been established.
- Within ground effect regulations the most effective medium to have a stable well-balanced car is to generate as much downforce as possible through the floor to strengthen the rear of the car while it is simple to say this achieving set performance through the floor is a complex task. This is because the floor is subject to interference during yaw and pitch movements affecting the floor stability. It is therefore a question of stabilizing the aerodynamic platform as much as possible to decrease the floor sensitivity to interferences and offer the correct vertical thrust in all speed ranges of the car. Mercedes with its Miami upgrades are trying to do this exact thing coupled with the W15's improved mechanical platform thanks to the revised suspension and chassis layout.
- While one hiccup the team could potentially face at Miami will be correlation issues between CFD, WT, and on-track performances one big concern will be the Sprint format bestowed upon the race weekend. Following the exploratory attempts during the Chinese Sprint Mercedes is certainly going to revise their tactics for this race weekend confirmed by James Allison himself :

https://postimages.org/

...

Now my thoughts about the W15 after the five races:

- The engine wants cold weather and the tires want warm weather.
- The car is fast in a straight line when the engine is cranked up and when the ambient is cold, but lacks mechanical grip.
- When it’s hot the car is slow in the straights but has more mechanical grip. The W13 car had more downforce from the new floor late in the year than the W14 car, but the W15 suspension is better than the W13. So, they sacrificed some downforce for better suspension stability and adjustment, but this led to sacrificing the tire warm-up since the suspension is so gentle on the tires now.
- The anti-dive front suspension is too rigid for this ground effect car era making the car understeer more and adding to the lack of tyre warm-up, particularly the fronts.
Besides the fact and understeering car which means sliding the front tires more than the rear would overheat the front tires undermines the fact the front tire warm up you speak of. Do you guys even think before posting on here?

Dunlay
Dunlay
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Joined: 10 Mar 2024, 15:23

Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Elite wrote:
28 Apr 2024, 22:42
Haha that's rich Dunlay :lol:

Maybe tell the same to the people bashing lewis and George.

And the ones patronising the Merc engineering team and hail max as some sort of Jesus Christ of driving.

The selective outrage is funny but annoying :evil:
Ok.

viewtopic.php?p=1201020#p1201020

dialtone
dialtone
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Joined: 25 Feb 2019, 01:31

Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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How can anyone take a journalist calling a team principal saying literally "I know a guy" seriously?

There's 1000 people working at Mercedes, and they receive countless resumes and this journalist somehow found the one good engineer they don't have?

Dunlay
Dunlay
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Joined: 10 Mar 2024, 15:23

Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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dialtone wrote:
29 Apr 2024, 04:09
How can anyone take a journalist calling a team principal saying literally "I know a guy" seriously?

There's 1000 people working at Mercedes, and they receive countless resumes and this journalist somehow found the one good engineer they don't have?
You might have seen a lot of sportspersons wear headsets while in Airports and in Transit. Primary reason for that is to avoid "Roadside Experts" giving advice on how to play better. :lol:

Toto is wearing one too in this case.

Hammerfist
Hammerfist
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Re: 2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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dialtone wrote:
29 Apr 2024, 04:09
How can anyone take a journalist calling a team principal saying literally "I know a guy" seriously?

There's 1000 people working at Mercedes, and they receive countless resumes and this journalist somehow found the one good engineer they don't have?
Thats Peter for you. Ever listen to his content? The guy is pretty out there.