Ferrari SF-24

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
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bananapeel23
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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ringo wrote:
Sun May 12, 2024 1:11 am
bananapeel23 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2024 2:10 pm
Man, Ferrari really loves spending time on weird halo decorations.

First the halo mirrors in 2018 with a winglet hanging off. Then the SF23 with the weird little wings sticking out on top of the halo. Then the first iteration of the SF24 winglets that created a tunnel between the sidepods and the halo. Now these weird S-shaped "cobra" winglets on the SF24 v2. Nto to mention all the small halo covers and the tiny winglets that barely stick out that were used on the SF21 and F1-75.

Why does Ferrari spend so much time and money on halo ornamentation while no one else does? Are the performance benefits thought to be significant at all or are we talking thousandths of a second per lap?

What purpose do they even serve? Is it akin to something like winglets on aircraft that aim to break up vortex formation and reduce drag downstram? Is it more of a flow conditioning thing meant to keep the airflow flowing off the halo nice and predictable when it hits the rear wing?
It's more like theyre obsessed with flow to the rear wing. Thw triangular roll hoop is another thing they tend to do to reduce drag going to the rear wing. So yes a lot focus for them is that flow path above the engine cover leading to the wing. Maybe the cobra winglet enhances the flow at the new sharp rear wing tips to give better top speed. We shall see.
Surely they must be chasing that Red Bull monster DRS efficiency by just putting as much of their overbody downforce as possible on the rear wing upper element. It seems to be working well too, since the Ferrari cars have gone from some of the slowest with DRS to among the fastest during this set of regulations. Their car is not just a downforce monster anymore, it really seems to be quite efficient as well at this point.

Sidewinder
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Any ideas as to why Ferrari hasn't brought the vertical face of the inlet further rearward like on the RB20?

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FDD
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Sidewinder wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 4:11 pm
Any ideas as to why Ferrari hasn't brought the vertical face of the inlet further rearward like on the RB20?

https://i.imgur.com/7dLRiMQ.png
They have their version of the concept which works for their car

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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The volume under the floors looks to be bigger if we go by the NGK hump and the receeding side impact structure.

The shark mouth looks to be the philosophy of "Don't snort! Take a sniff from the side."
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deadhead
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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That roll-hoop is beautiful :mrgreen:

Tzk
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Sidewinder wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 4:11 pm
Any ideas as to why Ferrari hasn't brought the vertical face of the inlet further rearward like on the RB20?
Just guessing here: I believe they might be doing it to control the airflow at high speeds, when the inlet is fed too much air (read: more than it can take) and thus air spills from the inlet to the sidepod surface. Maybe they want to guide the air around the sidepod, towards the rear with it. It also seems that the position of the vertical slit didn't change with the evo spec, so might be as well a cost reducing measure to just keep it the same. That way the inner ducting also stays.

All in all a nice evolution. Seems like Ferrari will at least narrow the gap to the fronst, just like McLaren did. Might finally give us better racing and no RB cruising away anymore...

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ing.
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Tzk wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 5:59 am
Sidewinder wrote:
Mon May 13, 2024 4:11 pm
Any ideas as to why Ferrari hasn't brought the vertical face of the inlet further rearward like on the RB20?
Just guessing here: I believe they might be doing it to control the airflow at high speeds, when the inlet is fed too much air (read: more than it can take) and thus air spills from the inlet to the sidepod surface. Maybe they want to guide the air around the sidepod, towards the rear with it. It also seems that the position of the vertical slit didn't change with the evo spec, so might be as well a cost reducing measure to just keep it the same. That way the inner ducting also stays.

All in all a nice evolution. Seems like Ferrari will at least narrow the gap to the fronst, just like McLaren did. Might finally give us better racing and no RB cruising away anymore...
The sharp edge and corner of the vertical divider will very likely be shedding a vortex at the higher speeds—due to the external diffusion of the spillage—so the forward location of the divider is probably also based on how this vortex needed to be positioned.

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sucof
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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The vortex created by the new L shaped air inlet is the most interesting in this update package in my opinion. A very strong vortex created there which runs along the sidepod above or beside the edge of the floor could be a game changer. And I am not sure if such a vortex was there before or if it was such strong as it could be, looking at this new feature.

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bananapeel23
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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sucof wrote:
Wed May 15, 2024 12:10 pm
The vortex created by the new L shaped air inlet is the most interesting in this update package in my opinion. A very strong vortex created there which runs along the sidepod above or beside the edge of the floor could be a game changer. And I am not sure if such a vortex was there before or if it was such strong as it could be, looking at this new feature.
Doesn't a big, powerful vortex require a pretty significant pressure differential? I don't really see why there would be one now that they have both the vertical inlets that remove the former stagnation points and the big undercuts.

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sucof
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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bananapeel23 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2024 4:11 pm
Doesn't a big, powerful vortex require a pretty significant pressure differential? I don't really see why there would be one now that they have both the vertical inlets that remove the former stagnation points and the big undercuts.
Yeah, good point. However we can not know how much pressure difference an air inlet is. It can vary from car to car, and by speed, also by the angle of the car, like when turning.
I think there is a rule that the aerodynamics inside the car is free to research with CFD...? That could explain why RB changes so much regarding air inlets, and why Ferrari is working so much in this area. Perhaps you can tune the amount of pressure by speed of the inlets so that it will affect the air around the sidepod, with internal ducting. Also when to create such a vortex.

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bananapeel23
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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sucof wrote:
Wed May 15, 2024 6:35 pm
bananapeel23 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2024 4:11 pm
Doesn't a big, powerful vortex require a pretty significant pressure differential? I don't really see why there would be one now that they have both the vertical inlets that remove the former stagnation points and the big undercuts.
Yeah, good point. However we can not know how much pressure difference an air inlet is. It can vary from car to car, and by speed, also by the angle of the car, like when turning.
I think there is a rule that the aerodynamics inside the car is free to research with CFD...? That could explain why RB changes so much regarding air inlets, and why Ferrari is working so much in this area. Perhaps you can tune the amount of pressure by speed of the inlets so that it will affect the air around the sidepod, with internal ducting. Also when to create such a vortex.
I just struggle to imagine what such a vortex would do? It would likely just prevent airflow from attaching to the walls in the undercut. If anything I'd imagine that the weird angled edge in the sidepod inlet would aim to minimize vortex formation by having the overpressure increase gradually along that edge, whereas having the entire sidepod inlet be flat would just create a stagnation point and some kind of "spillover". Although I guess you would rather have a nice, clean vortex than a stagnation point that spills over into the undercut. Although I'm guessing that laminar airflow in that region would be best.

But now I'm just guessing as someone with absolutely zero real understanding of car design or aerodynamics. I'd love to hear from someone that knows how this stuff works, if such a person even exists given how complex F1 aero is and how insanely difficult it is to figure this stuff out without CFD and a wind tunnel.

LurkingMostly
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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I found this interesting video on the evolution of floors in the last three years.

The video is in Italian, so here's a tldr of the main argument:
A floor like the F1-75's one, which was very smooth, was the theoretically the best kind of floor for ground effect cars (allows for very clean airflow, or whatever the correct technical term is).
As we know, that kind of floor had the drawback of creating porpoising (although, through either skill or luck, the F1-75's porpoising didn't compromise the overall car's performance).
On the other hand, RedBull's floor had a lot of jagged edges and complex shapes. That wasn't optimal but eliminated porpoising.
Now, having learned of ways to control porpoising, teams are actually trying to go back to a floor that is as simple/smooth as the F1-75 (this can be seen from the photos of the 2024 Mclaren floor).

He also praises the SF-24's miniaturized rear suspension, which according to him is a complex way to achieve the advantages of a RedBull-like setup, and get additional advantages.

Now, I can't confirm that this person knows what he's talking about (I'm not one to judge), but the video was interesting!

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deadhead
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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LurkingMostly wrote:
Wed May 15, 2024 7:35 pm
luck
Unlikely... the floor flexing was probably why the F1-75 didn't mind the bounce. It really was a great solution overall..

Also, as far as I remember, LEC was the only driver who didn't complain about the porpoising.

From what he is saying in the video, the current suspensions are now allowing the teams to go back to a F1-75 type floor while not having to worry about porpoising.

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Vanja #66
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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A nice overview of the changes introduced to the new spec of SF-24

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/the- ... /10610791/

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A very nice comparison of new flap tips and endplates, it's not a small change but it's also not a completely new spec wing. Decent-sized update, definitely aimed at reducing drag. The endplates are changed quite a lot, without any attempt at lateral expansion anymore. Significant reduction of frontal area of the wing-endplate joint, resulting in a decent drag reduction locally.

The flow will definitely have a very different pressure field with DRS on now, since the outer side of the flap is at such a lower angle now. I fully expect a +1kmh gain with DRS off and another +1kmh gain with DRS on with this spec, but we will have a hard time establishing any improvement relative to RB20 since it will also be upgraded.

Original bottom photo is from Motorsport article, I added leading edge and maximum thickness comparisons

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Last edited by Vanja #66 on Thu May 16, 2024 8:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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scuderiabrandon
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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More spanwise loading as well. Look at the radius of corner where main plane and endplate meet. A more cambered profile near the endplate but with a shorter chord length.

So a higher aspect ratio main plane
Last edited by scuderiabrandon on Thu May 16, 2024 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.