2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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DoctorRadio
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Xyz22 wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 3:53 pm
MattLightBlue wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 3:44 pm
Xyz22 wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 3:41 pm


Unfortunately, Ferrari didn't put enough pressure on McL in the second stint. They waited too much with the pit stops, probably scared of losing time with Perez. Norris had a very big buffer to Leclerc so he has been able to manage the first part of the stint to attack in the second one.
Norris seemed genuinely worried during the first laps with hards though. I agree Ferrari waited too much for the pit stops.
McL had an issue with the rears overheating in the first stint because Norris couldn't manage the pace there as Leclerc was just behind.

Ferrari needs to be more aggressive. The strategy wasn't a disaster, but far from optimal. With races like this one where the margins are small every decision has a significant impact.

The problem in quali is not related to tyre warm up only. Leclerc was suffering that specific issue more than Sainz, but he has put a lot of work in understanding what was wrong and that paid off. This doesn't mean the car is now quick in qualifying. At this point is quite clear that the chassis is not as good as the others in terms of extracting the full potential of the soft tyres over one lap with minimal amount of fuel. In fact, Leclerc and Sainz have yet to make a "perfect" lap this season.

My personal opinion is that is quite "easy" to get near the limit with the SF 24, but is really hard to get the absolute 100% and this is highlighted by the small improvements from Q2 to Q3 compared to last year and 2022. The drivers are not improving on a consistent basis, which probably means they can't find the grip they are expecting from the tyres.
Correct.
It’s possible that if they were more aggressive with the first stop as you say, Norris is forced to push and cooks his rear tyres (he said in the press conference that all the “slow” laps at the beginning of the stint were entirely dedicated to nursing the rear tyres, to have them later on); would he lose them completely so that Leclerc passes him?
Unlikely, but certainly it would have been another end of the race and who knows, maybe Mclaren would have looked less strong comparatively.

CouncilorIrissa
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Space-heat wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 12:08 pm
Yes on Sunday, but where were they in quali in Miami (https://www.formula1.com/en/results.htm ... fying.html)? It looks like Mclaren was set up for race pace and the SC eliminated his positional disadvantage from quali. Lando after qualification in Miami was saying he wished they could have undone the overnight changes. His better race pace got him an +7.612 second gap to Max at the end, 9.9 s to Charles.
There were fooling around with mediums at the time when the track was at its quickest in Q3.
Space-heat wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 12:08 pm
If Ferrari are behind Mclaren in the constructors after Barcelona feel free to burn it all down but at least give them a chance to fail.
I don't want to burn anything down, if anything I think that the team has done a good job with the upgrades, it's just that the competition has done an outrageous one.
Sphere3758 wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 3:23 pm
Bahrain : Without Charles brake issue, it would be a 2-4 instead of a 3-4
That's so not guaranteed.
bananapeel23 wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 3:40 pm
Also I would NOT underestimate the ability of Leclerc to absolutely dominate Monaco qualifying. The SF-23 was like half a second off the pace on average in quali in the first half of 2023, despite that Leclerc was within a tenth of pole in Monaco. The 2021 Ferrari was also pretty middling, yet Leclerc took pole in Monaco. The 2022 Ferrari was by far the best car in Monaco, but Leclerc was on track for a 0.8-1 second gap to the fastest non-Ferrari until Perez crashed out.

All three were traction monsters, which the SF-24 is very much not.

edit: I can't find the link now, but I think it was Sainz who said that the upgrades won't help much at Monaco.

dia6olo
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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CouncilorIrissa wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 4:43 pm
edit: I can't find the link now, but I think it was Sainz who said that the upgrades won't help much at Monaco.
For me Sainz has always been about Sainz he'd be happy beating his teammate and finishing 4th with his teammate 5th than finishing second behind his team mate.
Personally I feel that what Sainz says is not all that relevant, especially now he's on his way out.
In terms of trying to figure out the pros and cons with the car from driver comments, I only pay attention to what Leclerc has to say.
Also, Sainz and Leclerc have different driving stiles and want different things from the car, what doesn't work for Sainz might not be an issue for Leclerc...

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Vanja #66
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Xyz22 wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 3:53 pm
My personal opinion is that is quite "easy" to get near the limit with the SF 24, but is really hard to get the absolute 100% and this is highlighted by the small improvements from Q2 to Q3 compared to last year and 2022. The drivers are not improving on a consistent basis, which probably means they can't find the grip they are expecting from the tyres.
Q2-Q3 improvements are pretty much aligned with Max after Australia, even in Japan and China where cold Saturdays hurt Ferrari a lot. Like I said a few times already, SF-24 is designed to be gentler on its tyres than both previous cars and that means they are now in the same boat as RB20 when it comes to Q capabilities and, more importantly, race performance.

Image

They simply still need to find a bit more from their floor, where they lack v RB20 and we'll see soon enough how they'll handle the next update package and wing changes in between.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

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bananapeel23
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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CouncilorIrissa wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 4:43 pm
bananapeel23 wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 3:40 pm
Also I would NOT underestimate the ability of Leclerc to absolutely dominate Monaco qualifying. The SF-23 was like half a second off the pace on average in quali in the first half of 2023, despite that Leclerc was within a tenth of pole in Monaco. The 2021 Ferrari was also pretty middling, yet Leclerc took pole in Monaco. The 2022 Ferrari was by far the best car in Monaco, but Leclerc was on track for a 0.8-1 second gap to the fastest non-Ferrari until Perez crashed out.

All three were traction monsters, which the SF-24 is very much not.

edit: I can't find the link now, but I think it was Sainz who said that the upgrades won't help much at Monaco.
But what it does do well is medium speed cornerns, braking performance, performance at bumpy tracks etc. Like I said, I don't expect the SF24 to be the best car at Monaco, but I do expect it to be good enough for Leclerc to make up the difference at the ultimate quali merchant track. (I'm not implying Leclerc is a quali merchant, just that he's a ridiculously good in quali, especially at technical tracks like Monaco)

Also remember that there are no true traction monsters in F1 currently. The F1-75 (and maybe early season AMR23) were the last true traction monsters. The RB20 and MCL38(?) are better under traction, but not massively so. The F1-75 pre-TD39 was much faster in Monaco than the 2023 cars. Saying that Leclerc got pole in Monaco in 2022 in part because the car was a traction monster is true, but implying that the SF24 can't get pole because the other cars are better under traction is massively underselling just how stupidly good the F1-75 was under traction.

The difference under traction between the F1-75 and RB18 was much, much larger than the gap between the SF24 and RB20. The F1-75 and RB18 traction gap was way too large to make up for on other parts of the track, the SF24 and RB20 traction gap is very much not.

CouncilorIrissa
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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dia6olo wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 5:04 pm
CouncilorIrissa wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 4:43 pm
edit: I can't find the link now, but I think it was Sainz who said that the upgrades won't help much at Monaco.
For me Sainz has always been about Sainz he'd be happy beating his teammate and finishing 4th with his teammate 5th than finishing second behind his team mate.
Personally I feel that what Sainz says is not all that relevant, especially now he's on his way out.
In terms of trying to figure out the pros and cons with the car from driver comments, I only pay attention to what Leclerc has to say.
Also, Sainz and Leclerc have different driving stiles and want different things from the car, what doesn't work for Sainz might not be an issue for Leclerc...
While the point about him being happier with beating his teammate rather than having a car might be true, he seems to be the more grounded of himself-Charles-Vasseur trio when it comes to evaluating car performance.

Prior to Imola, Vasseur said that they would be fighting for victory with upgrades. https://formu1a.uno/en/vasseur-ferrari- ... -upgrades/. They didn't, although they closed the gap by 60-70%.

Leclerc said that the target was taking pole https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-le ... e/10611611. They didn't, but to be fair he also did try to downplay the upgrades.

Sainz was the one downplaying the impact of upgrades the most and he was right. https://racingnews365.com/sainz-hits-ba ... redictions

catent
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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This season is far from over. My sense is that McLaren has a bit more raw pace, less drag, and a peakier car. Yes, they’re fast, but they have a bad habit of eating their rear tires. I’m not convinced McLaren’s aero is as efficient as Ferrari’s and at front-limited tracks, or tracks with higher deg, Ferrari will be a peg ahead. There’s no clear pecking order at this point, far too little data to operate with and the fresh upgrades are still very new, plenty to learn/optimize.

dia6olo
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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CouncilorIrissa wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 6:57 pm
dia6olo wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 5:04 pm
CouncilorIrissa wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 4:43 pm
edit: I can't find the link now, but I think it was Sainz who said that the upgrades won't help much at Monaco.
For me Sainz has always been about Sainz he'd be happy beating his teammate and finishing 4th with his teammate 5th than finishing second behind his team mate.
Personally I feel that what Sainz says is not all that relevant, especially now he's on his way out.
In terms of trying to figure out the pros and cons with the car from driver comments, I only pay attention to what Leclerc has to say.
Also, Sainz and Leclerc have different driving stiles and want different things from the car, what doesn't work for Sainz might not be an issue for Leclerc...
While the point about him being happier with beating his teammate rather than having a car might be true, he seems to be the more grounded of himself-Charles-Vasseur trio when it comes to evaluating car performance.

Prior to Imola, Vasseur said that they would be fighting for victory with upgrades. https://formu1a.uno/en/vasseur-ferrari- ... -upgrades/. They didn't, although they closed the gap by 60-70%.

Leclerc said that the target was taking pole https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-le ... e/10611611. They didn't, but to be fair he also did try to downplay the upgrades.

Sainz was the one downplaying the impact of upgrades the most and he was right. https://racingnews365.com/sainz-hits-ba ... redictions
It looks to me like your view is solely based on the last 2 races and all else is being ignored.
As catent said above, the season is long.
Imola has not been a favourite track for Ferrari in like forever and Ferrari had no upgrade in Miami, yet in Miami Ferrari still picked up more points than McLaren over the weekend and there was a strong likelihood that but for the safety car they would have even finished ahead of them in the race.
Yes McLaren started Miami P5 & P6 but qualifying is part of the racing, had Ferrari started ahead of McLaren at Imola there was every chance they would have finished ahead.

Them saying they would be fighting for victories with the upgrade does not equal them winning the first race that comes along.
There is a long way to go and there will be tracks that will favour Ferrari's strengths and expose some weaknesses in others.

CouncilorIrissa
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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bananapeel23 wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 6:52 pm

But what it does do well is medium speed cornerns, braking performance, performance at bumpy tracks etc. Like I said, I don't expect the SF24 to be the best car at Monaco, but I do expect it to be good enough for Leclerc to make up the difference at the ultimate quali merchant track. (I'm not implying Leclerc is a quali merchant, just that he's a ridiculously good in quali, especially at technical tracks like Monaco)
I'm not sure if the current car allows him to make the difference. In 2022 he'd routinely pull .5 seconds on Sainz and quali times came very easy to him. Does not seem to be the case anymore, although Imola was the first time he was reliably quicker than Sainz in FP and quali session 90% of the time.

We'll see soon enough, I guess.
dia6olo wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 7:25 pm
Them saying they would be fighting for victories with the upgrade does not equal them winning the first race that comes along.
Both Vasseur and Charles were explicit about their targets and expectation in Imola. Both were off which is proven by Charles being surprised post quali at their gap to competition.

Basically, they weren't in the fight in Imola. A gap of 2 tenths in quali in modern F1 is significant.
dia6olo wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 7:25 pm
yet in Miami Ferrari still picked up more points than McLaren
Dunno why you're so hell-bent on counting points. If we're counting points as a proxy for performance, then Sainz was the quicker driver of the two in 2021, except we both know that is not true.

All I care is car performance trend which was concerning prior to update (see MCL getting progressively closer with each race on very different circuits), and it's getting more concerning post-update as the weekend was as representative as it gets: dry weather throughout the weekend, no changes to tyre pressure (which is just wowza in modern F1), similar air and track temps on each day.
dia6olo wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 7:25 pm
There is a long way to go and there will be tracks that will favour Ferrari's strengths and expose some weaknesses in others.
Do list those strengths, please. Because if at the start of the season I could confidently say that medium-speed corner performance, straight-line speed and tyre wear were our advantages, now there's only the first of those left, with straight-line speed now being a disadvantage and tyre wear advantage being veeery marginal.

dia6olo
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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CouncilorIrissa wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 8:11 pm

Do list those strengths, please. Because if at the start of the season I could confidently say that medium-speed corner performance, straight-line speed and tyre wear were our advantages, now there's only the first of those left, with straight-line speed now being a disadvantage and tyre wear advantage being veeery marginal.
There is no point debating it anymore, you have made it very clear what you think and how you see it.
Ferrari have had their upgrade for one outing on a track that has not been a favourite of theirs for a very long time.
Regardless you have pretty much concluded that, that one outing is 100% representative of how things are.
It takes time, different track layouts, different track tyre degradation levels, different temperatures amongst other things to fully understand were the various upgrades stand.
I am not blind and can see the significant improvement McLaren have made, but I am also not naive to think one outing is representative.

AmateurDriver
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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dia6olo wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 9:02 pm
CouncilorIrissa wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 8:11 pm

Do list those strengths, please. Because if at the start of the season I could confidently say that medium-speed corner performance, straight-line speed and tyre wear were our advantages, now there's only the first of those left, with straight-line speed now being a disadvantage and tyre wear advantage being veeery marginal.
There is no point debating it anymore, you have made it very clear what you think and how you see it.
Ferrari have had their upgrade for one outing on a track that has not been a favourite of theirs for a very long time.
Regardless you have pretty much concluded that, that one outing is 100% representative of how things are.
It takes time, different track layouts, different track tyre degradation levels, different temperatures amongst other things to fully understand were the various upgrades stand.
I am not blind and can see the significant improvement McLaren have made, but I am also not naive to think one outing is representative.
One outing is not representative, sure, but Imola Is quite probing with is mixed characteristics isn't it? Are you aware that if we aren't quite faster than McLaren in the twisty roads of Monaco second place is nothing but gone?

dia6olo
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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AmateurDriver wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 9:24 pm
dia6olo wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 9:02 pm
CouncilorIrissa wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 8:11 pm

Do list those strengths, please. Because if at the start of the season I could confidently say that medium-speed corner performance, straight-line speed and tyre wear were our advantages, now there's only the first of those left, with straight-line speed now being a disadvantage and tyre wear advantage being veeery marginal.
There is no point debating it anymore, you have made it very clear what you think and how you see it.
Ferrari have had their upgrade for one outing on a track that has not been a favourite of theirs for a very long time.
Regardless you have pretty much concluded that, that one outing is 100% representative of how things are.
It takes time, different track layouts, different track tyre degradation levels, different temperatures amongst other things to fully understand were the various upgrades stand.
I am not blind and can see the significant improvement McLaren have made, but I am also not naive to think one outing is representative.
One outing is not representative, sure, but Imola Is quite probing with is mixed characteristics isn't it? Are you aware that if we aren't quite faster than McLaren in the twisty roads of Monaco second place is nothing but gone?
My comment also talked about tyre degradation which with today's Pirelli self destructing tyres is 95% of the battle.
It's not all about corner types, for example we have yet to see a high deg track since the upgrades.
Also there seems to be an assumption that Ferrari nailed their setup, did everything perfectly and it is what it is.
Like I said it was one outing and it will be 2/3/4 outings before we truly know.
If we are to judge the last two outings alone, McLaren are the quickest team, however, would you or anyone bet their house that they are now quicker than Red Bull going forward? I think not...
Last edited by dia6olo on Tue May 21, 2024 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CouncilorIrissa
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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dia6olo wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 9:02 pm
CouncilorIrissa wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 8:11 pm

Do list those strengths, please. Because if at the start of the season I could confidently say that medium-speed corner performance, straight-line speed and tyre wear were our advantages, now there's only the first of those left, with straight-line speed now being a disadvantage and tyre wear advantage being veeery marginal.
There is no point debating it anymore, you have made it very clear what you think and how you see it.
Ferrari have had their upgrade for one outing on a track that has not been a favourite of theirs for a very long time.
Regardless you have pretty much concluded that, that one outing is 100% representative of how things are.
It takes time, different track layouts, different track tyre degradation levels, different temperatures amongst other things to fully understand were the various upgrades stand.
I am not blind and can see the significant improvement McLaren have made, but I am also not naive to think one outing is representative.
I don't know what I did to you for you to resort to personal comments.

I think that Imola being historically an unfavourable circuit has very little bearing on the current car as it's characteristics are wildly different from those exhibited by 2021 and 2022 cars. The earlier outings at the circuit are largely irrelevant because they happened more than 20 years ago, it's a different team at this point.

What we know about Imola is that it has a mix high-speed corners with fast direction changes that require a sharp front-end, traction zones after Acque Minerali and Variante Alta chicane and low-to-mid speed corners in the third.

What makes it a relative outlier is that it's bumpier than the average circuit, which makes it hard for teams to run the car as low as possible. I think it was Vanja who said that the new lower floor edges would likely produce more downforce on flatter circuits, so any improvement from that change was likely diminished around Imola.

Pirelli also place this circuit right in the middle in terms of track abrasion.
Image

The weekend had a relatively high temperature that is supposedly favoured by Ferrari.

Based off that, I struggle to pinpoint anything too outrageous about the circuit that makes it completely irrelevant to the rest of the calendar. I'm not saying that it's a perfect proxy, but it's "normal" enough to be concerned by the results.

Seanspeed
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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dia6olo wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 2:36 pm
It's Ferrari that are sitting second in the constructors not McLaren and it's by a healthy margin.
Just because things haven't gone as well in the last 2 races and McLaren have made significant improvements, the margins are very tight between the leading 3 cars, the gaps can easily swing again, in fact i'd be very surprised if they don't.
WCC picture can shift fast given there's two cars per team. If Mclaren are consistently better than Ferrari going forward, they will very easily overtake Ferrari here. Heck, even Red Bull isn't off limits if Perez doesn't get his stuff together.

It's my impression, which isn't worth a ton sure, that Ferrari need a bigger upgrade, and that might not come for a little while. So far this season, Ferrari has never been anything except an occasional nuisance for the top spot. Australia will always be a big unknown and it's exactly why I was kinda disappointed that despite the win, we didn't get to see how we really measured up to Max/RB in the race. So there's some 'what if' factor there, but otherwise, we've very much looked like a clear 'runner up' sort of car and I dont see that's changed. What has changed is that Mclaren took the leap we were hoping Ferrari could and can now challenge for wins on merit.

Two things I say a lot - "We'll see" and "I hope I'm wrong". lol

AmateurDriver
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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dia6olo wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 9:41 pm
AmateurDriver wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 9:24 pm
dia6olo wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 9:02 pm

There is no point debating it anymore, you have made it very clear what you think and how you see it.
Ferrari have had their upgrade for one outing on a track that has not been a favourite of theirs for a very long time.
Regardless you have pretty much concluded that, that one outing is 100% representative of how things are.
It takes time, different track layouts, different track tyre degradation levels, different temperatures amongst other things to fully understand were the various upgrades stand.
I am not blind and can see the significant improvement McLaren have made, but I am also not naive to think one outing is representative.
One outing is not representative, sure, but Imola Is quite probing with is mixed characteristics isn't it? Are you aware that if we aren't quite faster than McLaren in the twisty roads of Monaco second place is nothing but gone?
My comment also talked about tyre degradation which with today's Pirelli self destructing tyres is 95% of the battle.
It's not all about corner types, for example we have yet to see a high deg track since the upgrades.
Also there seems to be an assumption that Ferrari nailed their setup, did everything perfectly and it is what it is.
Like I said it was one outing and it will be 2/3/4 outings before we truly know.
If we are to judge the last two outings alone, McLaren are the quickest team, however, would you or anyone bet their house that they are now quicker than Red Bull going forward? I think not...
My point is that for the time being Red Bull and McLaren are in front (and actually I don't care too much to discover who is going to prevail). McLaren has shown strengths that make them well positioned to grab multiple wins on suitable tracks. Ferrari has not, at the moment. If it doesn't emerge that we have an edge over McLaren in the slow corners of Montecarlo than we have no weapons to fight for the second place in WCC.