Ferrari SF-24

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falonso81
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Someone on yt said Ferrari brought a rear suspension upgrade. Was there any mention of this?

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Vanja #66
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falonso81 wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2024 7:05 am
Someone on yt said Ferrari brought a rear suspension upgrade. Was there any mention of this?
Nugnes reported this for Motorsport Italy. It's supposed to be an internal part update and those aren't displayed on Show and Tell, like aero updates are
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:34 am
falonso81 wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2024 7:05 am
Someone on yt said Ferrari brought a rear suspension upgrade. Was there any mention of this?
Nugnes reported this for Motorsport Italy. It's supposed to be an internal part update and those aren't displayed on Show and Tell, like aero updates are
What Nugnes is talking about here is switching from Belleville springs to torsion bars, something that I think already happened four weeks ago. Torsion bars can be dosed more precisely which is an advantage when fine-tuning these cars, which currently have a rear ride height of just 60-70mm.
The new "system" optimizes the ground clearance in the rear in certain speed ranges. The top speed gain is only a (desired) "side effect" (which Red Bull has probably already had with a similar but simpler system since the beginning of 2022). The suspension can now be set so that the rear end is relatively high in slow and medium-speed corners. This gives you room to cushion kerbs and bumps more or less gently. As speed and downforce increase, the ground clearance remains at a predetermined minimum. This provides optimum downforce for fast bends. At maximum load on the straights, the suspension collapses and a stall occurs. The stages at which the rear is lowered, when and by how much, are set before the start of the journey. This system weighs a few kilos, but is more than worth it, at least if you get the set-up right.

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deadhead wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2024 6:08 pm
https://ibb.co/hy2sQhy
This really is an amazing image man
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Stu
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 7:35 am
Interesting visualisation of floor edge vortex on SF-24 during Pirelli wet tyre test. Seems like vorticity is much higher than 2 years ago, judging by the amount of vortex trails now and then.

https://storage.googleapis.com/fp-media ... ricard.jpg

https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... -75-1.webp
Could it be due to the increase in flow through the outwash FW maintaining the floor edge vortex for longer?
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Vanja #66
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Andi76 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2024 4:32 pm
The new "system" optimizes the ground clearance in the rear in certain speed ranges. The top speed gain is only a (desired) "side effect" (which Red Bull has probably already had with a similar but simpler system since the beginning of 2022). The suspension can now be set so that the rear end is relatively high in slow and medium-speed corners. This gives you room to cushion kerbs and bumps more or less gently. As speed and downforce increase, the ground clearance remains at a predetermined minimum. This provides optimum downforce for fast bends. At maximum load on the straights, the suspension collapses and a stall occurs. The stages at which the rear is lowered, when and by how much, are set before the start of the journey. This system weighs a few kilos, but is more than worth it, at least if you get the set-up right.
I've read the AMuS article and I disagree completely with it. Simply, if there's a diffuser stall there would be obvious bouncing, which was never the case on Red Bull car. Not to mention this leaves the floor exposed to sudden losses of downforce in high speed corners if there's a bump or if going over a curb. Ferrari is matching Red Bull on Top Speed thanks to introducing aggressive DRS flap angle (and maximising frontal surface area) and reducing overall bodywork and chassis drag, which was quite clear with Imola upgrade :)

Stu wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:03 am
Could it be due to the increase in flow through the outwash FW maintaining the floor edge vortex for longer?
I think it's more due to increase in the flow and pressure difference between floor inlet fences. If that is the case, then also the big vortex shed from the inner-most fence is probably more powerful as well, which is obviously a very desirable feature :)
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:39 am
Andi76 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2024 4:32 pm
The new "system" optimizes the ground clearance in the rear in certain speed ranges. The top speed gain is only a (desired) "side effect" (which Red Bull has probably already had with a similar but simpler system since the beginning of 2022). The suspension can now be set so that the rear end is relatively high in slow and medium-speed corners. This gives you room to cushion kerbs and bumps more or less gently. As speed and downforce increase, the ground clearance remains at a predetermined minimum. This provides optimum downforce for fast bends. At maximum load on the straights, the suspension collapses and a stall occurs. The stages at which the rear is lowered, when and by how much, are set before the start of the journey. This system weighs a few kilos, but is more than worth it, at least if you get the set-up right.
I've read the AMuS article and I disagree completely with it. Simply, if there's a diffuser stall there would be obvious bouncing, which was never the case on Red Bull car. Not to mention this leaves the floor exposed to sudden losses of downforce in high speed corners if there's a bump or if going over a curb. Ferrari is matching Red Bull on Top Speed thanks to introducing aggressive DRS flap angle (and maximising frontal surface area) and reducing overall bodywork and chassis drag, which was quite clear with Imola upgrade :)

Stu wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:03 am
Could it be due to the increase in flow through the outwash FW maintaining the floor edge vortex for longer?
I think it's more due to increase in the flow and pressure difference between floor inlet fences. If that is the case, then also the big vortex shed from the inner-most fence is probably more powerful as well, which is obviously a very desirable feature :)
I would actually be very surprised if it wasn't true. Michael Schmidt is without a doubt the best-informed journalist in F1 and he wouldn't say such things if he hadn't heard them first-hand. He is also one of the very few who actually still has access to the important and leading engineers themselves as he has known some of them for ovee 40 years (the "old" ones) or since they have been in F1 (the "young" ones). And he is not someone who spreads speculation. I know that Ferrari changed certain things on the suspension with the Imola update. This goes from the dampers with a special valve that improves damping during cornering, as well as the springs and ride height control. So this is absolutely in line with his statements. And even though I'm not an aerodynamicist, bringing the diffuser as close to the ground as possible and in a controlled manner has always been a tried and tested method and a main goal, just like a diffuser stall (something that Newey and "his suspensions" are well known for) for which the F1 aerodynamicists, like under every other set of regulations, have found solutions. The onboards in the last three years also speak for themselves when it comes to this for certain teams and also the improving control at the rear axle. And in 2024 in particular, you can hear a big step forward, which in turn is again in line with Schmidts statements. The DRS flap, bodywork and chassis drag would also be a little too "simple" for me to explain such an extreme top speed advantage Red Bull had at the beginning. This would presuppose a several classes difference in terms of the Aero Departement, which is absolutely not the case in F1. It is also rather unlikely to require almost three years of development, which, on the other hand, is completely normal for a sophisticated suspension and ride height control system.

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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:39 am
I've read the AMuS article and I disagree completely with it. Simply, if there's a diffuser stall there would be obvious bouncing, which was never the case on Red Bull car. Not to mention this leaves the floor exposed to sudden losses of downforce in high speed corners if there's a bump or if going over a curb. Ferrari is matching Red Bull on Top Speed thanks to introducing aggressive DRS flap angle (and maximising frontal surface area) and reducing overall bodywork and chassis drag, which was quite clear with Imola upgrade :)
The critical lowering phenomena would only be designed to work in a pure heave state of the rear suspension. Such a condition is only found when traveling in a straight line. When the car enters a high speed corner, roll angle is introduced. If I was designing this system, I would want the subsequent motion of the suspension in roll (difference in push/pull rod displacements) to freeze out this kinematic degree of freedom that causes the lowering effect. This would make sure the car doesn't lower itself incorrectly in a high speed corner when it hits a "bump". It should not be able to do that when there is roll.

I'm sure you are aware of the mechanical ride height control systems that are available in the MotoGP



Perhaps they have replicated it. Why would there be bouncing? The suspension is designed to lock down. The trigger to return the suspension to the cornering state could simply be when roll is introduced, or due to the natural pitching/suspension jacking tendency of the car when the brake is applied. The same effect is used to release the suspension on the MotoGP bikes.

I don't know if teams actually have this system, but it is not an impossible problem.

Is there a regulation that defines the linearity of the suspension? That might entirely rule this out. I don't know.

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ing.
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AR3-GP wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2024 12:02 am
Vanja #66 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:39 am
I've read the AMuS article and I disagree completely with it. Simply, if there's a diffuser stall there would be obvious bouncing, which was never the case on Red Bull car. Not to mention this leaves the floor exposed to sudden losses of downforce in high speed corners if there's a bump or if going over a curb. Ferrari is matching Red Bull on Top Speed thanks to introducing aggressive DRS flap angle (and maximising frontal surface area) and reducing overall bodywork and chassis drag, which was quite clear with Imola upgrade :)
The critical lowering phenomena would only be designed to work in a pure heave state of the rear suspension. Such a condition is only found when traveling in a straight line. When the car enters a high speed corner, roll angle is introduced. If I was designing this system, I would want the subsequent motion of the suspension in roll (difference in push/pull rod displacements) to freeze out this kinematic degree of freedom that causes the lowering effect. This would make sure the car doesn't lower itself incorrectly in a high speed corner when it hits a "bump". It should not be able to do that when there is roll.

I'm sure you are aware of the mechanical ride height control systems that are available in the MotoGP



Perhaps they have replicated it. Why would there be bouncing? The suspension is designed to lock down. The trigger to return the suspension to the cornering state could simply be when roll is introduced, or due to the natural pitching/suspension jacking tendency of the car when the brake is applied. The same effect is used to release the suspension on the MotoGP bikes.

I don't know if teams actually have this system, but it is not an impossible problem.

Is there a regulation that defines the linearity of the suspension? That might entirely rule this out. I don't know.
Rules don’t impose linearity but rather prohibit reversal of rate increase/decrease, i.e. wheel rate must be ‘monotonic’. Per this—and subsequent responses—non linearity is not prohibited: https://x.com/scarbstech/status/1797647 ... 5rN71eTA2g

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Vanja #66
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Andi76 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 10:08 pm
I would actually be very surprised if it wasn't true. Michael Schmidt is without a doubt the best-informed journalist in F1 and he wouldn't say such things if he hadn't heard them first-hand. He is also one of the very few who actually still has access to the important and leading engineers themselves as he has known some of them for ovee 40 years (the "old" ones) or since they have been in F1 (the "young" ones). And he is not someone who spreads speculation. I know that Ferrari changed certain things on the suspension with the Imola update. This goes from the dampers with a special valve that improves damping during cornering, as well as the springs and ride height control. So this is absolutely in line with his statements. And even though I'm not an aerodynamicist, bringing the diffuser as close to the ground as possible and in a controlled manner has always been a tried and tested method and a main goal, just like a diffuser stall (something that Newey and "his suspensions" are well known for) for which the F1 aerodynamicists, like under every other set of regulations, have found solutions. The onboards in the last three years also speak for themselves when it comes to this for certain teams and also the improving control at the rear axle. And in 2024 in particular, you can hear a big step forward, which in turn is again in line with Schmidts statements. The DRS flap, bodywork and chassis drag would also be a little too "simple" for me to explain such an extreme top speed advantage Red Bull had at the beginning. This would presuppose a several classes difference in terms of the Aero Departement, which is absolutely not the case in F1. It is also rather unlikely to require almost three years of development, which, on the other hand, is completely normal for a sophisticated suspension and ride height control system.
I understand what you are saying and I understand the connection that article is making. However, certain facts speak very much against it, like Top Speeds in Jeddah Q3:

- 2022 RB +8 kmh (+13 kmh on main straight)
- 2023 RB +6 kmh (+3 kmh on main straight)
- 2024 RB +1 kmh (+3 kmh on main striaght)

We can see the biggest overall step on Top Speeds was made more between 2022 and 2023 and this is a recurring thing on all tracks.

In Miami this year Ferrari matched RB on Top Speed, but in Imola they had bigger beam wing and the difference was +6kmh for Red Bull (on Max' first Q3 lap, since second lap was with a tow) even with new bodywork and improved and more efficient rear wing. Not really a sign of massive increase due to diffuser stall. :) In Monaco, Ferrari was +2kmh on Top Speed when both cars had maximised wings (but I think this was also down to a bit worse initial traction for RB). In Canada, with the same wing load and a new updated and slightly smaller beam wing on Ferrari they matched RB on Top Speed as well.

I have no doubt sophisticated suspension architecture can lead to big improvements in lap time by delivering stable aero platform and allowing team's mechanics to fine tune it to perfection on track. On the other hand, even minimal diffuser stall can upset the rear end and introduce bouncing (like Mercedes again had in high speed corners in Jeddah this year) while RB is simply on rails and as smooth as they can be in high speed. Two more things

- Ferrari's diffuser kick is not the lowest point of the floor, therefore it would be impossible to stall it on low-ground-clearance before the throat is stalled and this would definitely show in high speed corners and there would be bouncing
- McLaren is reported not to use it, but they are closer than ever to RB on Top Speed and their rear wings have a less steep DRS flap angle and therefore DRS delta is smaller

All in all, I don't see anything magical about Ferrari's Top Speed improvement in the last 2 years, it's a step-by-step improvement and the biggest one was made with lower drag bodywork in 2023, while the step in early 2024 was mostly down to improved DRS flap efficiency.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

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Vanja #66
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Finally we got some shots on Motorsport.com to compare the new mid-load beam wing design in Canada. Although they look similar at first sight, interaction between two elements is different. The new BW has slightly smaller frontal area due to the twist on the top element, dropping the AoA towards endplates. However, the AoA is much higher towards the exhaust and thus the suction on the rear is increased.

My suspicion is an overall increase in drag due to stronger suction between two elements. However, this suction is what drives the floor and diffuser more than previous version and it is quite localised around the exhaust. It's kind of a cross between the BW we saw at Monaco and launch-spec BW design. I did not expect such a development, I was almost sure Ferrari is moving away from this stacked design, I guess they found a very good compromise between driving the floor and having an efficient design that meets their drag targets.

Who knows, we might see this BW design coupled with Monaco RW in Barcelona.

Image

Ah, found a flow-vis shot as well

Image

And comparing with previous version

Image
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

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SharkY
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2024 8:33 am
I have no doubt sophisticated suspension architecture can lead to big improvements in lap time by delivering stable aero platform and allowing team's mechanics to fine tune it to perfection on track. On the other hand, even minimal diffuser stall can upset the rear end and introduce bouncing (like Mercedes again had in high speed corners in Jeddah this year) while RB is simply on rails and as smooth as they can be in high speed. Two more things

- Ferrari's diffuser kick is not the lowest point of the floor, therefore it would be impossible to stall it on low-ground-clearance before the throat is stalled and this would definitely show in high speed corners and there would be bouncing
- McLaren is reported not to use it, but they are closer than ever to RB on Top Speed and their rear wings have a less steep DRS flap angle and therefore DRS delta is smaller
Vanja, correct me if my understanding is wrong.
If the diffuser was stalling at its lowest angle to the ground (when the suspension is in the lowest position), that would mean that the diffuser angle is pretty high. I feel like it would be nearly impossible to design it in such a way, that it wouldn't stall at the initial moment of braking, when the airspeed is still quite high, but the diffuser angle rises.
And the diffuser stall in braking seems like a BAD idea.
What's more, a stall is inherently unstable, i.e. the point of separation would travel back and forth, unless there was a separation device (like a sharp edge). And I never saw any sharp edges down there.

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Vanja #66
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SharkY wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 11:16 am
Vanja, correct me if my understanding is wrong.
If the diffuser was stalling at its lowest angle to the ground (when the suspension is in the lowest position), that would mean that the diffuser angle is pretty high. I feel like it would be nearly impossible to design it in such a way, that it wouldn't stall at the initial moment of braking, when the airspeed is still quite high, but the diffuser angle rises.
And the diffuser stall in braking seems like a BAD idea.
What's more, a stall is inherently unstable, i.e. the point of separation would travel back and forth, unless there was a separation device (like a sharp edge). And I never saw any sharp edges down there.
Diffuser angle is pretty high on these cars, yes. Braking increases rear ride height (even if just a little bit with these cars) and reduced velocity decompresses the whole car and it raises very quickly while braking. This means multiple changes in geometry between the floor and ground which all inherently prevent diffuser stall.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

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