2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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venkyhere
venkyhere
3
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2024 5:17 am

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

venkyhere wrote:
Fri May 03, 2024 1:10 pm
The fastest cars are the ones that are jittery and nervous, with a razor sharp front and nervous rear. The driver has to manipulate the car rather than react to it. Any car that isn't setup this way -> every 0.001 of laptime from the engineered limit can't be extracted, something is left on the table.

The only people I have seen do justice to cars setup this way, are Schumacher and Verstappen. No, not Lewis, he needs a bit of understeer to tame the rear. LeClerc is the closest next. Maybe there were drivers before (that's why the "I have seen" in the sentence above) who were masters at such a setup, but I can't tell anything from footage because pre-1995 was about active suspensions, ABS, Traction control etc.

With this info in mind, the only way Sainz going to Redbull will make sense, is only if he knows Max wont be at RedBull from the end of 2026 (the realistic approach for Max is to wait and see for 1 yr of new rules as to how the RedBull is, and then decide) because as long as Max is the other driver, the car is always going to be built as a nervous being.

Because that's where laptime comes from. If Max remains, then no matter what clauses Sainz puts into his contract, there is no way he is going to beat Max in race conditions (not just quali). It's a question of who can consistently tame a wild horse, lap after lap, since any amount of domestication is going to slow it down. Just ask all of Max's ex and current teammates, why they can't drive his setup and have to dial in some understeer, and as a result sacrifice laptime.
venkyhere wrote:
Fri May 03, 2024 4:50 pm
Seanspeed wrote:
Fri May 03, 2024 2:33 pm
It's an especially strange claim specifically when the Red Bull cars in particular have not been super reactive cars in the past few years, and lean more towards understeer with a super stable and predictable aerodynamic balance.

Not to mention that being able to handle oversteer-y cars was actually considered one of Lewis' biggest strengths. Just because the Mercs he had in their more dominating era weren't like this(which again goes against your other claim of this being fastest) doesn't mean it's cuz Lewis demanded it or couldn't handle things otherwise.
My claim comes from the simple theory that the car that spends the least fraction of it's laptime with steering not in a straight ahead position, is allowing for the most efficient acceleration and braking, since the sum of the durations when throttle or braking is ongoing whilst there is a slip angle on the tyres, is minimised. When to choose the 'moment' to release brake or apply throttle such that these two acts don't amplify the slip/slide -- that's the driver skill. A 'predictable' non-nervous car inevitably spends more morsels of time 'waiting' before releasing brakes or before applying throttle.
There are some interesting screenshots from the 2024 Canadian GP, which illustrate what I was referring to, above.

These images are from the hairpin T10, towards the end of the first lap after the final safety car restart. I have drawn a reference line at the exit of the corner, and each screenshot shows the relative position of the cars to this line. HAM and ALO are on H , rest are on M of the same age (except RUS who has freshest M), and since many high speed braking and traction events are already done over the first restart lap, tyres have come into temp I assume.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image


It's a good testament to who has the best exit from the corner after making the most 'efficient rotation' , as having the car 'straightest at the earliest', is key to maximize performance over the mega straight that comes after this hairpin.

As we can see, VER & HAM are the best (VER marginally better, to my eye) at this, as they are alien level talent. The difference w.r.t others, is very subtle, but key.
The people in the grandstand facing this view, would have easily been able to see this difference across drivers/cars, lap after lap.

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Vettel165
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Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:46 pm
Location: Maribor/Slovenia

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

venkyhere wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2024 1:09 pm
venkyhere wrote:
Fri May 03, 2024 1:10 pm
The fastest cars are the ones that are jittery and nervous, with a razor sharp front and nervous rear. The driver has to manipulate the car rather than react to it. Any car that isn't setup this way -> every 0.001 of laptime from the engineered limit can't be extracted, something is left on the table.

The only people I have seen do justice to cars setup this way, are Schumacher and Verstappen. No, not Lewis, he needs a bit of understeer to tame the rear. LeClerc is the closest next. Maybe there were drivers before (that's why the "I have seen" in the sentence above) who were masters at such a setup, but I can't tell anything from footage because pre-1995 was about active suspensions, ABS, Traction control etc.

With this info in mind, the only way Sainz going to Redbull will make sense, is only if he knows Max wont be at RedBull from the end of 2026 (the realistic approach for Max is to wait and see for 1 yr of new rules as to how the RedBull is, and then decide) because as long as Max is the other driver, the car is always going to be built as a nervous being.

Because that's where laptime comes from. If Max remains, then no matter what clauses Sainz puts into his contract, there is no way he is going to beat Max in race conditions (not just quali). It's a question of who can consistently tame a wild horse, lap after lap, since any amount of domestication is going to slow it down. Just ask all of Max's ex and current teammates, why they can't drive his setup and have to dial in some understeer, and as a result sacrifice laptime.
venkyhere wrote:
Fri May 03, 2024 4:50 pm
Seanspeed wrote:
Fri May 03, 2024 2:33 pm
It's an especially strange claim specifically when the Red Bull cars in particular have not been super reactive cars in the past few years, and lean more towards understeer with a super stable and predictable aerodynamic balance.

Not to mention that being able to handle oversteer-y cars was actually considered one of Lewis' biggest strengths. Just because the Mercs he had in their more dominating era weren't like this(which again goes against your other claim of this being fastest) doesn't mean it's cuz Lewis demanded it or couldn't handle things otherwise.
My claim comes from the simple theory that the car that spends the least fraction of it's laptime with steering not in a straight ahead position, is allowing for the most efficient acceleration and braking, since the sum of the durations when throttle or braking is ongoing whilst there is a slip angle on the tyres, is minimised. When to choose the 'moment' to release brake or apply throttle such that these two acts don't amplify the slip/slide -- that's the driver skill. A 'predictable' non-nervous car inevitably spends more morsels of time 'waiting' before releasing brakes or before applying throttle.
There are some interesting screenshots from the 2024 Canadian GP, which illustrate what I was referring to, above.

These images are from the hairpin T10, towards the end of the first lap after the final safety car restart. I have drawn a reference line at the exit of the corner, and each screenshot shows the relative position of the cars to this line. HAM and ALO are on H , rest are on M of the same age (except RUS who has freshest M), and since many high speed braking and traction events are already done over the first restart lap, tyres have come into temp I assume.

https://i.imgur.com/mP89WPk.png
https://i.imgur.com/j0vAhxo.png
https://i.imgur.com/Y5Qp5yN.png
https://i.imgur.com/jMfYBkQ.png
https://i.imgur.com/VKI8meO.png
https://i.imgur.com/ee6nmw4.png


It's a good testament to who has the best exit from the corner after making the most 'efficient rotation' , as having the car 'straightest at the earliest', is key to maximize performance over the mega straight that comes after this hairpin.

As we can see, VER & HAM are the best (VER marginally better, to my eye) at this, as they are alien level talent. The difference w.r.t others, is very subtle, but key.
The people in the grandstand facing this view, would have easily been able to see this difference across drivers/cars, lap after lap.
Incredible post. Well done.

Emag
Emag
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Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:56 pm

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

venkyhere wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2024 1:09 pm
venkyhere wrote:
Fri May 03, 2024 1:10 pm
The fastest cars are the ones that are jittery and nervous, with a razor sharp front and nervous rear. The driver has to manipulate the car rather than react to it. Any car that isn't setup this way -> every 0.001 of laptime from the engineered limit can't be extracted, something is left on the table.

The only people I have seen do justice to cars setup this way, are Schumacher and Verstappen. No, not Lewis, he needs a bit of understeer to tame the rear. LeClerc is the closest next. Maybe there were drivers before (that's why the "I have seen" in the sentence above) who were masters at such a setup, but I can't tell anything from footage because pre-1995 was about active suspensions, ABS, Traction control etc.

With this info in mind, the only way Sainz going to Redbull will make sense, is only if he knows Max wont be at RedBull from the end of 2026 (the realistic approach for Max is to wait and see for 1 yr of new rules as to how the RedBull is, and then decide) because as long as Max is the other driver, the car is always going to be built as a nervous being.

Because that's where laptime comes from. If Max remains, then no matter what clauses Sainz puts into his contract, there is no way he is going to beat Max in race conditions (not just quali). It's a question of who can consistently tame a wild horse, lap after lap, since any amount of domestication is going to slow it down. Just ask all of Max's ex and current teammates, why they can't drive his setup and have to dial in some understeer, and as a result sacrifice laptime.
venkyhere wrote:
Fri May 03, 2024 4:50 pm
Seanspeed wrote:
Fri May 03, 2024 2:33 pm
It's an especially strange claim specifically when the Red Bull cars in particular have not been super reactive cars in the past few years, and lean more towards understeer with a super stable and predictable aerodynamic balance.

Not to mention that being able to handle oversteer-y cars was actually considered one of Lewis' biggest strengths. Just because the Mercs he had in their more dominating era weren't like this(which again goes against your other claim of this being fastest) doesn't mean it's cuz Lewis demanded it or couldn't handle things otherwise.
My claim comes from the simple theory that the car that spends the least fraction of it's laptime with steering not in a straight ahead position, is allowing for the most efficient acceleration and braking, since the sum of the durations when throttle or braking is ongoing whilst there is a slip angle on the tyres, is minimised. When to choose the 'moment' to release brake or apply throttle such that these two acts don't amplify the slip/slide -- that's the driver skill. A 'predictable' non-nervous car inevitably spends more morsels of time 'waiting' before releasing brakes or before applying throttle.
There are some interesting screenshots from the 2024 Canadian GP, which illustrate what I was referring to, above.

These images are from the hairpin T10, towards the end of the first lap after the final safety car restart. I have drawn a reference line at the exit of the corner, and each screenshot shows the relative position of the cars to this line. HAM and ALO are on H , rest are on M of the same age (except RUS who has freshest M), and since many high speed braking and traction events are already done over the first restart lap, tyres have come into temp I assume.

https://i.imgur.com/mP89WPk.png
https://i.imgur.com/j0vAhxo.png
https://i.imgur.com/Y5Qp5yN.png
https://i.imgur.com/jMfYBkQ.png
https://i.imgur.com/VKI8meO.png
https://i.imgur.com/ee6nmw4.png


It's a good testament to who has the best exit from the corner after making the most 'efficient rotation' , as having the car 'straightest at the earliest', is key to maximize performance over the mega straight that comes after this hairpin.

As we can see, VER & HAM are the best (VER marginally better, to my eye) at this, as they are alien level talent. The difference w.r.t others, is very subtle, but key.
The people in the grandstand facing this view, would have easily been able to see this difference across drivers/cars, lap after lap.
It's a great post, but that really doesn't matter much when it comes to finding out who is faster through there. If you tell each of those drivers that they're being measured on how straight they exit out of that corner, each one of them will be dead straight.

But they won't do that every lap, because it's not necessarily the fastest line on all conditions. It depends on how you're taking the corner. If you went deep in the entry, you gonna sacrifice the exit a bit. And you can see this in the image you showed as well, where Lando actually has gone quite a bit deeper than the rest of the drivers, and that's why on the exit he is pointed a bit outwards.

On another lap, you might see the opposite.

My point is, it's not gonna be the same every lap, and it's not gonna be perfect every lap. Either way, what looks the "neatest" line is not always the quickest. For example, if you have to sacrifice minimum speed in order to get this seemingly "perfect" line, then you shouldn't go for it. Much better off if you go on the throttle earlier but go a bit wider on the exit.

And the same applies to "hitting the apex". If you missed the braking point by a bit, forget about the apex. Just keep the minimum speed up. It's not gonna perfect, and you're not gonna be as fast as someone who might have nailed the corner, but it still will be much better than slowing down harder in order to pull yourself back into the "perfect" line.

TeamKoolGreen
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Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2024 12:49 am

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Jdn1327 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:42 am
I gotta say, that was a proper Champions drive from Max. He was the only one in the top 5 that did not make any errors...keeping it on the island gave him the win. And in a car that was not the quickest this weekend.
He made an error early in the race and George gapped him. Not saying it wasn't a champ drive but the top 3 all made some mistakes.

TeamKoolGreen
TeamKoolGreen
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Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2024 12:49 am

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Perez qualified 8th, 5th and 11th (missing Q3) in the last 3 Spanish grand prix. So this 3 place grid drop is going to hit hard. Granted he did ok in the races in all 3 years.

Max has won this race 3 years in a row. When will they serve his MGU-K penalty ?

venkyhere
venkyhere
3
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2024 5:17 am

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Emag wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2024 5:35 pm
venkyhere wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2024 1:09 pm
venkyhere wrote:
Fri May 03, 2024 1:10 pm
The fastest cars are the ones that are jittery and nervous, with a razor sharp front and nervous rear. The driver has to manipulate the car rather than react to it. Any car that isn't setup this way -> every 0.001 of laptime from the engineered limit can't be extracted, something is left on the table.

The only people I have seen do justice to cars setup this way, are Schumacher and Verstappen. No, not Lewis, he needs a bit of understeer to tame the rear. LeClerc is the closest next. Maybe there were drivers before (that's why the "I have seen" in the sentence above) who were masters at such a setup, but I can't tell anything from footage because pre-1995 was about active suspensions, ABS, Traction control etc.

With this info in mind, the only way Sainz going to Redbull will make sense, is only if he knows Max wont be at RedBull from the end of 2026 (the realistic approach for Max is to wait and see for 1 yr of new rules as to how the RedBull is, and then decide) because as long as Max is the other driver, the car is always going to be built as a nervous being.

Because that's where laptime comes from. If Max remains, then no matter what clauses Sainz puts into his contract, there is no way he is going to beat Max in race conditions (not just quali). It's a question of who can consistently tame a wild horse, lap after lap, since any amount of domestication is going to slow it down. Just ask all of Max's ex and current teammates, why they can't drive his setup and have to dial in some understeer, and as a result sacrifice laptime.
venkyhere wrote:
Fri May 03, 2024 4:50 pm


My claim comes from the simple theory that the car that spends the least fraction of it's laptime with steering not in a straight ahead position, is allowing for the most efficient acceleration and braking, since the sum of the durations when throttle or braking is ongoing whilst there is a slip angle on the tyres, is minimised. When to choose the 'moment' to release brake or apply throttle such that these two acts don't amplify the slip/slide -- that's the driver skill. A 'predictable' non-nervous car inevitably spends more morsels of time 'waiting' before releasing brakes or before applying throttle.
There are some interesting screenshots from the 2024 Canadian GP, which illustrate what I was referring to, above.

These images are from the hairpin T10, towards the end of the first lap after the final safety car restart. I have drawn a reference line at the exit of the corner, and each screenshot shows the relative position of the cars to this line. HAM and ALO are on H , rest are on M of the same age (except RUS who has freshest M), and since many high speed braking and traction events are already done over the first restart lap, tyres have come into temp I assume.

https://i.imgur.com/mP89WPk.png
https://i.imgur.com/j0vAhxo.png
https://i.imgur.com/Y5Qp5yN.png
https://i.imgur.com/jMfYBkQ.png
https://i.imgur.com/VKI8meO.png
https://i.imgur.com/ee6nmw4.png


It's a good testament to who has the best exit from the corner after making the most 'efficient rotation' , as having the car 'straightest at the earliest', is key to maximize performance over the mega straight that comes after this hairpin.

As we can see, VER & HAM are the best (VER marginally better, to my eye) at this, as they are alien level talent. The difference w.r.t others, is very subtle, but key.
The people in the grandstand facing this view, would have easily been able to see this difference across drivers/cars, lap after lap.
It's a great post, but that really doesn't matter much when it comes to finding out who is faster through there. If you tell each of those drivers that they're being measured on how straight they exit out of that corner, each one of them will be dead straight.

But they won't do that every lap, because it's not necessarily the fastest line on all conditions. It depends on how you're taking the corner. If you went deep in the entry, you gonna sacrifice the exit a bit. And you can see this in the image you showed as well, where Lando actually has gone quite a bit deeper than the rest of the drivers, and that's why on the exit he is pointed a bit outwards.

On another lap, you might see the opposite.
There is a huge advantage in 'how early (early=location wise) at the exit of the corner the car is pointed straight' so that full throttle gives maximum benefit. Full throttle isn't going to give the same performance when there is a slip angle present in the tyres. So lesser the duration spent when tyres have a slip angle, better it is. Compared to Max, Lando is further away from the theoretically best way to exit the corner for the following straight, because some of the acceleration is dissipated going sideways, instead of 100% forwards. If there is a long straight that follows the corner, sacrificing at entry and gaining at exit is the only way to optimize the straight, whether it's Q or whether it's race, defending from a car in the rear or attacking the car in front. Braking deceleration is going to be much greater than throttle acceleration, which means the time loss by sacrificing entry will always be less than the time loss sacrificing exit.

'might see the opposite' on another lap, will lead to time loss, in my opinion.


Emag wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2024 5:35 pm

My point is, it's not gonna be the same every lap, and it's not gonna be perfect every lap. Either way, what looks the "neatest" line is not always the quickest. For example, if you have to sacrifice minimum speed in order to get this seemingly "perfect" line, then you shouldn't go for it. Much better off if you go on the throttle earlier but go a bit wider on the exit.

And the same applies to "hitting the apex". If you missed the braking point by a bit, forget about the apex. Just keep the minimum speed up. It's not gonna perfect, and you're not gonna be as fast as someone who might have nailed the corner, but it still will be much better than slowing down harder in order to pull yourself back into the "perfect" line.
Of course, the exact geometrical aligment cannot be repeated every lap, the grip changes lap to lap, fuel load changes lap to lap etc. My aim was to show the 'general trend'.

Regarding minimal speed, my understanding is exactly opposite to yours :)
-> According to me, even if minimum speed is sacrificed, geometrical orientation at the time of application of full throttle is mega important. For that, rotating the car as quickly as possible, even if the minimum speed is lower, is beneficial, purely because it takes less time to lower the minimal speed (braking) than the extra duration taken to rotate the car before applying full throttle. The tyres are spending less duration with slip angle, even if minimal speed is reduced a bit.
We are talking in terms of throwing away 1-2 kph to gain 0.05 to 0.1s delta.

I took a screenshot of the telemetry (thanks to F1-tempo.com) of this exact T10 corner as shown in the pics, of the first Q3 run of the RUS and VER who eventually qualified with equal times, and I am hoping to illustrate my point from markings I made in the screenshot. (if we take another two laps there might be differences, but the trend will follow, since both of them have distinct driving styles). Both of them did this around the same time of the day, with S tyres and with most probably same fuel load in the car, so the data can be assumed to be representative, with confidence.

Image

VER is spending less time 'rotating the car' than RUS, and despite his minimal speed being 1kph lower, he has 'gained' 0.12s purely from driving technique alone and can be seen to be leaving the same geographical point at the exit of the corner (assumed with reasonable confidence as the difference in lines is only subtle and not major) , with higher speed (I think it's 4-5 kph higher when I checked the numbers, forgot to type in the pic). The eventual fact that he loses whatever he gained from the corner, in the straight that follows, is purely because he has higher drag due to more downforce bigger wing(s).

The reason I say this is from driving technique is because of the slowness of the corner (minimal speed is around 60-61) and the car rotation happens after significant deceleration. So we can discount any 'downforce benefit' that VER might have over RUS.

Emag
Emag
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Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:56 pm

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

venkyhere wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:16 am
Emag wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2024 5:35 pm
venkyhere wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2024 1:09 pm




There are some interesting screenshots from the 2024 Canadian GP, which illustrate what I was referring to, above.

These images are from the hairpin T10, towards the end of the first lap after the final safety car restart. I have drawn a reference line at the exit of the corner, and each screenshot shows the relative position of the cars to this line. HAM and ALO are on H , rest are on M of the same age (except RUS who has freshest M), and since many high speed braking and traction events are already done over the first restart lap, tyres have come into temp I assume.

https://i.imgur.com/mP89WPk.png
https://i.imgur.com/j0vAhxo.png
https://i.imgur.com/Y5Qp5yN.png
https://i.imgur.com/jMfYBkQ.png
https://i.imgur.com/VKI8meO.png
https://i.imgur.com/ee6nmw4.png


It's a good testament to who has the best exit from the corner after making the most 'efficient rotation' , as having the car 'straightest at the earliest', is key to maximize performance over the mega straight that comes after this hairpin.

As we can see, VER & HAM are the best (VER marginally better, to my eye) at this, as they are alien level talent. The difference w.r.t others, is very subtle, but key.
The people in the grandstand facing this view, would have easily been able to see this difference across drivers/cars, lap after lap.
It's a great post, but that really doesn't matter much when it comes to finding out who is faster through there. If you tell each of those drivers that they're being measured on how straight they exit out of that corner, each one of them will be dead straight.

But they won't do that every lap, because it's not necessarily the fastest line on all conditions. It depends on how you're taking the corner. If you went deep in the entry, you gonna sacrifice the exit a bit. And you can see this in the image you showed as well, where Lando actually has gone quite a bit deeper than the rest of the drivers, and that's why on the exit he is pointed a bit outwards.

On another lap, you might see the opposite.
There is a huge advantage in 'how early (early=location wise) at the exit of the corner the car is pointed straight' so that full throttle gives maximum benefit. Full throttle isn't going to give the same performance when there is a slip angle present in the tyres. So lesser the duration spent when tyres have a slip angle, better it is. Compared to Max, Lando is further away from the theoretically best way to exit the corner for the following straight, because some of the acceleration is dissipated going sideways, instead of 100% forwards. If there is a long straight that follows the corner, sacrificing at entry and gaining at exit is the only way to optimize the straight, whether it's Q or whether it's race, defending from a car in the rear or attacking the car in front. Braking deceleration is going to be much greater than throttle acceleration, which means the time loss by sacrificing entry will always be less than the time loss sacrificing exit.

'might see the opposite' on another lap, will lead to time loss, in my opinion.


Emag wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2024 5:35 pm

My point is, it's not gonna be the same every lap, and it's not gonna be perfect every lap. Either way, what looks the "neatest" line is not always the quickest. For example, if you have to sacrifice minimum speed in order to get this seemingly "perfect" line, then you shouldn't go for it. Much better off if you go on the throttle earlier but go a bit wider on the exit.

And the same applies to "hitting the apex". If you missed the braking point by a bit, forget about the apex. Just keep the minimum speed up. It's not gonna perfect, and you're not gonna be as fast as someone who might have nailed the corner, but it still will be much better than slowing down harder in order to pull yourself back into the "perfect" line.
Of course, the exact geometrical aligment cannot be repeated every lap, the grip changes lap to lap, fuel load changes lap to lap etc. My aim was to show the 'general trend'.

Regarding minimal speed, my understanding is exactly opposite to yours :)
-> According to me, even if minimum speed is sacrificed, geometrical orientation at the time of application of full throttle is mega important. For that, rotating the car as quickly as possible, even if the minimum speed is lower, is beneficial, purely because it takes less time to lower the minimal speed (braking) than the extra duration taken to rotate the car before applying full throttle. The tyres are spending less duration with slip angle, even if minimal speed is reduced a bit.
We are talking in terms of throwing away 1-2 kph to gain 0.05 to 0.1s delta.

I took a screenshot of the telemetry (thanks to F1-tempo.com) of this exact T10 corner as shown in the pics, of the first Q3 run of the RUS and VER who eventually qualified with equal times, and I am hoping to illustrate my point from markings I made in the screenshot. (if we take another two laps there might be differences, but the trend will follow, since both of them have distinct driving styles). Both of them did this around the same time of the day, with S tyres and with most probably same fuel load in the car, so the data can be assumed to be representative, with confidence.

https://i.imgur.com/Ftnnm1v.png

VER is spending less time 'rotating the car' than RUS, and despite his minimal speed being 1kph lower, he has 'gained' 0.12s purely from driving technique alone and can be seen to be leaving the same geographical point at the exit of the corner (assumed with reasonable confidence as the difference in lines is only subtle and not major) , with higher speed (I think it's 4-5 kph higher when I checked the numbers, forgot to type in the pic). The eventual fact that he loses whatever he gained from the corner, in the straight that follows, is purely because he has higher drag due to more downforce bigger wing(s).

The reason I say this is from driving technique is because of the slowness of the corner (minimal speed is around 60-61) and the car rotation happens after significant deceleration. So we can discount any 'downforce benefit' that VER might have over RUS.
At least from a simracing perspective, from personal experience I can attest to being faster out of some corners even when the exit wasn't "perfectly straight".

Hairpins are tricky, because there is more tha one way to get them right, and it hugely depends on what your goals for the lap are, your driving style, and whether or not there is a long straight after the hairpin or not (which means there's plenty to gain at the exit so you can sacrifice the entry).

And this is exactly what Verstappen has done compared to George. He ran in deeper by braking much later, and still managed to keep minimum speed up while also gaining on the exit.

In this particular example, Verstappen has absolutely nailed the corner, telemetry wise, but are you absolutely certain that this lap was one of those where he was "straight" out of the exit?

Either way, there is some car performance on top of driver ability that plays a role as well. RedBull might just simply be better than Mercedes on braking and slow-speed rotation, making it easier for Max to get this ideal execution.

And also, on slow speed corners it's all about trail braking and how much rotation you can induce mid-corner.

This video explains it well :

Much easier said than done. Very difficult to get it right every single lap, especially when variables like tire grip, fuel loads and track condition are constantly changing.

User avatar
Wouter
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Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

#-o #-o #-o And in Barcelona Checo was never a good qualifier.

The Power of Dreams!

Xyz22
Xyz22
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Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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https://x.com/tracingpoint/status/1800271166894121122

This is Sergeant level of driving. How is this acceptable by Red Bull?

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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venkyhere wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:16 am

I took a screenshot of the telemetry (thanks to F1-tempo.com) of this exact T10 corner as shown in the pics, of the first Q3 run of the RUS and VER who eventually qualified with equal times, and I am hoping to illustrate my point from markings I made in the screenshot. (if we take another two laps there might be differences, but the trend will follow, since both of them have distinct driving styles). Both of them did this around the same time of the day, with S tyres and with most probably same fuel load in the car, so the data can be assumed to be representative, with confidence.

Image

VER is spending less time 'rotating the car' than RUS, and despite his minimal speed being 1kph lower, he has 'gained' 0.12s purely from driving technique alone and can be seen to be leaving the same geographical point at the exit of the corner (assumed with reasonable confidence as the difference in lines is only subtle and not major) , with higher speed (I think it's 4-5 kph higher when I checked the numbers, forgot to type in the pic). The eventual fact that he loses whatever he gained from the corner, in the straight that follows, is purely because he has higher drag due to more downforce bigger wing(s).

The reason I say this is from driving technique is because of the slowness of the corner (minimal speed is around 60-61) and the car rotation happens after significant deceleration. So we can discount any 'downforce benefit' that VER might have over RUS.
That image is exactly what one would expect from a car with more downforce - able to brake later (hence on throttle longer). Your lines showing that Ves was on throttle before Rus are erroneous - one can see quite clearly that they were both full throttle at the same time on the throttle trace.
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chrisc90
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Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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I wonder if there’s provision to swap Checo and Yuki over mid season.

Jdn1327
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Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Waz wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2024 12:27 pm
.poz wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2024 12:10 pm
what about the strange team radio by Max about a "locked" suspension ?
He said the ride was bad and FEELS like a locked suspension.

You could see just after that the car was bouncing like it had almost no suspension.

He wasn't being literal
Could that be due to the switch from the wet tyres to dry? Does the circumference of the tyre make a difference in suspension feel?

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Sieper
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Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2024 12:39 pm
Surprising underperformance from Max not to take the pole in perfect conditions for RB20. But Marko will be there, ready and waiting, with another set of excuses if Max doesn't win today
Max won. no further excuses for underperformances needed. :arrow:

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Wouter
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Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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From now on Max will wear this Orange Tribute Helmet 2024.

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Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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venkyhere wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:16 am

I took a screenshot of the telemetry (thanks to F1-tempo.com) of this exact T10 corner as shown in the pics, of the first Q3 run of the RUS and VER who eventually qualified with equal times, and I am hoping to illustrate my point from markings I made in the screenshot. (if we take another two laps there might be differences, but the trend will follow, since both of them have distinct driving styles). Both of them did this around the same time of the day, with S tyres and with most probably same fuel load in the car, so the data can be assumed to be representative, with confidence.

https://i.imgur.com/Ftnnm1v.png

VER is spending less time 'rotating the car' than RUS, and despite his minimal speed being 1kph lower, he has 'gained' 0.12s purely from driving technique alone and can be seen to be leaving the same geographical point at the exit of the corner (assumed with reasonable confidence as the difference in lines is only subtle and not major) , with higher speed (I think it's 4-5 kph higher when I checked the numbers, forgot to type in the pic). The eventual fact that he loses whatever he gained from the corner, in the straight that follows, is purely because he has higher drag due to more downforce bigger wing(s).

The reason I say this is from driving technique is because of the slowness of the corner (minimal speed is around 60-61) and the car rotation happens after significant deceleration. So we can discount any 'downforce benefit' that VER might have over RUS.

Also, unless I’m misunderstanding your point, this telemetry seems to say the exact opposite of what you’re saying.
In the hairpin, ver makes up time on the brakes by braking later, hence his speed trace shows he is travelling faster all the way to his slightly later apex.
From that point onwards there is no point where his speed > rus, obviously therefore there is no point at which he’s gaining time.

Edited just for clarity of who I’m responding to.