Real reasons IndyCar driver champions will never moving to Formula 1 in the future after Sebastien Bourdais

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theriusDR3
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Real reasons IndyCar driver champions will never moving to Formula 1 in the future after Sebastien Bourdais

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Cristiano da Matta and Sébastien Bourdais were the victims of Formula 1 flops after won the CART/Champ Car World Series titles respectively in 2003-2004 and 2008-2009. Both ended up in an uncompetitive machinery and had a same story respectively.

Here are the real reasons of IndyCar driver champions will never moving to Formula 1 in the future after Sebastien Bourdais:
1. Trauma of failure like da Matta and Bourdais
2. Formula 1 competition level is 4 times tougher than IndyCar
3. Ended up in uncompetitive car

Any additions? Alex Palou and Patricio O’Ward must avoid the step of da Matta and Bourdais by staying in IndyCar Series for the long-term rather than moving to Formula 1 in a garbage machinery that limited their winning chances because IndyCar has strong chance of winning races even winning titles.

Hoffman900
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Re: Real reasons IndyCar driver champions will never moving to Formula 1 in the future after Sebastien Bourdais

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theriusDR3 wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2024 1:25 pm
Cristiano da Matta and Sébastien Bourdais were the victims of Formula 1 flops after won the CART/Champ Car World Series titles respectively in 2003-2004 and 2008-2009. Both ended up in an uncompetitive machinery and had a same story respectively.

Here are the real reasons of IndyCar driver champions will never moving to Formula 1 in the future after Sebastien Bourdais:
1. Trauma of failure like da Matta and Bourdais
2. Formula 1 competition level is 4 times tougher than IndyCar
3. Ended up in uncompetitive car

Any additions? Alex Palou and Patricio O’Ward must avoid the step of da Matta and Bourdais by staying in IndyCar Series for the long-term rather than moving to Formula 1 in a garbage machinery that limited their winning chances because IndyCar has strong chance of winning races even winning titles.
4x higher? :lol:

You think Stroll, Sergeant, KMag, current Alonso, etc. are going to wipe everyone’s butt in Indy Car? :lol:

The real reason is money and Euro centric politics. The FIA and Liberty is never going to make it easy for driver’s outside their path because then that weakens the business model of F3 and F2, and they would have to reckon with driver’s outside their “bEsT dRiVERs iN tHe WORld” isn’t true.

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Big Tea
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Re: Real reasons IndyCar driver champions will never moving to Formula 1 in the future after Sebastien Bourdais

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2024 2:50 pm
theriusDR3 wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2024 1:25 pm
Cristiano da Matta and Sébastien Bourdais were the victims of Formula 1 flops after won the CART/Champ Car World Series titles respectively in 2003-2004 and 2008-2009. Both ended up in an uncompetitive machinery and had a same story respectively.

Here are the real reasons of IndyCar driver champions will never moving to Formula 1 in the future after Sebastien Bourdais:
1. Trauma of failure like da Matta and Bourdais
2. Formula 1 competition level is 4 times tougher than IndyCar
3. Ended up in uncompetitive car

Any additions? Alex Palou and Patricio O’Ward must avoid the step of da Matta and Bourdais by staying in IndyCar Series for the long-term rather than moving to Formula 1 in a garbage machinery that limited their winning chances because IndyCar has strong chance of winning races even winning titles.
4x higher? :lol:

You think Stroll, Sergeant, KMag, current Alonso, etc. are going to wipe everyone’s butt in Indy Car? :lol:

The real reason is money and Euro centric politics. The FIA and Liberty is never going to make it easy for driver’s outside their path because then that weakens the business model of F3 and F2, and they would have to reckon with driver’s outside their “bEsT dRiVERs iN tHe WORld” isn’t true.
Grojens?
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Hoffman900
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Re: Real reasons IndyCar driver champions will never moving to Formula 1 in the future after Sebastien Bourdais

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Big Tea wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2024 9:23 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2024 2:50 pm
theriusDR3 wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2024 1:25 pm
Cristiano da Matta and Sébastien Bourdais were the victims of Formula 1 flops after won the CART/Champ Car World Series titles respectively in 2003-2004 and 2008-2009. Both ended up in an uncompetitive machinery and had a same story respectively.

Here are the real reasons of IndyCar driver champions will never moving to Formula 1 in the future after Sebastien Bourdais:
1. Trauma of failure like da Matta and Bourdais
2. Formula 1 competition level is 4 times tougher than IndyCar
3. Ended up in uncompetitive car

Any additions? Alex Palou and Patricio O’Ward must avoid the step of da Matta and Bourdais by staying in IndyCar Series for the long-term rather than moving to Formula 1 in a garbage machinery that limited their winning chances because IndyCar has strong chance of winning races even winning titles.
4x higher? :lol:

You think Stroll, Sergeant, KMag, current Alonso, etc. are going to wipe everyone’s butt in Indy Car? :lol:

The real reason is money and Euro centric politics. The FIA and Liberty is never going to make it easy for driver’s outside their path because then that weakens the business model of F3 and F2, and they would have to reckon with driver’s outside their “bEsT dRiVERs iN tHe WORld” isn’t true.
Grojens?
Former F2 champion. Everyone forgets that. He also was rapid in the Lotus and had 10 podiums.

He’s been in the mix as expected, but still hasn’t won a race in 3 seasons.

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Big Tea
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Re: Real reasons IndyCar driver champions will never moving to Formula 1 in the future after Sebastien Bourdais

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2024 10:58 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2024 9:23 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2024 2:50 pm


4x higher? :lol:

You think Stroll, Sergeant, KMag, current Alonso, etc. are going to wipe everyone’s butt in Indy Car? :lol:

The real reason is money and Euro centric politics. The FIA and Liberty is never going to make it easy for driver’s outside their path because then that weakens the business model of F3 and F2, and they would have to reckon with driver’s outside their “bEsT dRiVERs iN tHe WORld” isn’t true.
Grojens?
Former F2 champion. Everyone forgets that. He also was rapid in the Lotus and had 10 podiums.

He’s been in the mix as expected, but still hasn’t won a race in 3 seasons.
Not a bad driver at all. Sometimes erratic, but held his own in the second tear of F1 drivers.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

purestpurist
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Re: Real reasons IndyCar driver champions will never moving to Formula 1 in the future after Sebastien Bourdais

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The track record of f1 drivers switching to indycar proves the difference between the two series isn't *that* big. Fans also fail to take into account how its nature as a spec series affects results. The fact the cars are so closely matched creates lots of variables f1 drivers don't have to worry about. It's not unreasonable to think a Sato could pick up a couple wins in a decade of spec-f1.

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JordanMugen
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Re: Real reasons IndyCar driver champions will never moving to Formula 1 in the future after Sebastien Bourdais

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purestpurist wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 1:10 am
The track record of f1 drivers switching to indycar proves the difference between the two series isn't *that* big.
Isn't Indycar more like F2? Slower cars (only 3-3.5G cornering) without power steering, far more random results?

Even so, Barrichello was quite mediocre in Indycar, just as Bourdais was mediocre in F1. Meanwhile Ericsson is much more competitive in Indycar than F1, while Grosjean is not. Top F2 drivers like Illot are not necessarily superstars in Indycar either.

It seems the skillsets are not that comparable. Maybe Power or Dixon would be at the level of Verstappen in F1, maybe they wouldn't be.

Power wasn't that exceptional in European junior formulae, while Dixon didn't do European junior formulae at all (both Dixon and Power were Formula Holden champions, an Australian championship with old Formula 3000 cars fitted with Buick 3800 engines -- however the depth of field in this series is VERY low).

feni_remmen
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Re: Real reasons IndyCar driver champions will never moving to Formula 1 in the future after Sebastien Bourdais

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A Quick Look at crossovers in both directions shows the hit and miss nature of this.

- Jacques Villeneuve was given the best seat in f1 and succeeded.
- Wayne Montana was given the best seat in indycar and succeeded, then went to Williams and “succeeded?”
- Steve Johnson went from mid f1 team to mid indycar and maintained expectations.
- Alessandro Zanardi went from the top Indy team to mid field Williams and failed.
- Romain Grosjean went from the slowest f1 team to 3rd best Indycar team. He brought his habits and reputation with him and gave us what we hoped for and expected.
- Sébastien Bourdais was disappointing for sure, but he went from the top Indycar team to mid field f1 team.
- Cristiano da Matta was the same as Bourdais.

These are all good drivers given good, bad or average cars…
Unrealistic expectations are more to blame for the outcomes…

F1 is a much more closed shop, where getting the right car determines your trajectory, but let’s now kid ourselves about Indycar. Penske and Ganassi are the champion makers. It’s no surprise that Indycar champions drive for these 2 teams.

I’m sure if Grosjean had have been dropped into a Penske straight away, we’d have seen the splashes of “brilliance?”that kept him in f1 for so long, but I’d also expect that by now Roger would have tired of the issues and let him go, Kevin Cogan or Ryan Briscoe style.

Using the Scott Dixon and Will Power as examples seems a bit off, they both took to Indycar straight off, but they also both replaced drivers that their team had lost confidence in, giving their teams a real comfort that they were competent replacements. In both cases they both found their way to Indycar because it was the only way up, then found their way into top teams and fitted in well and were smart enough to stay with the teams. I’m sure we can all pick drivers that might have been magic but didn’t quick click. There’s nothing special about their story, both are great drivers who might have been able to succeed in F1 (depending on what you mean by succeed)…

As discussed, this has more to do with f1 politics, but that’s true of any attempted transition from Indycar into f1 for 30 years. Not to personally knock Sergio Perez, but at least 10 Indycar drivers and at least 10 F1 drivers could all do his job at red bull to his current level (and all would happily do so), and Sergio knows it. Plus, if Sergio wanted to take himself to indycar and was given a Penske seat, he would win.

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AMG.Tzan
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Re: Real reasons IndyCar driver champions will never moving to Formula 1 in the future after Sebastien Bourdais

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feni_remmen wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 5:45 am
A Quick Look at crossovers in both directions shows the hit and miss nature of this.

- Jacques Villeneuve was given the best seat in f1 and succeeded.
- Wayne Montana was given the best seat in indycar and succeeded, then went to Williams and “succeeded?”
- Steve Johnson went from mid f1 team to mid indycar and maintained expectations.
- Alessandro Zanardi went from the top Indy team to mid field Williams and failed.
- Romain Grosjean went from the slowest f1 team to 3rd best Indycar team. He brought his habits and reputation with him and gave us what we hoped for and expected.
- Sébastien Bourdais was disappointing for sure, but he went from the top Indycar team to mid field f1 team.
- Cristiano da Matta was the same as Bourdais.

These are all good drivers given good, bad or average cars…
Unrealistic expectations are more to blame for the outcomes…

F1 is a much more closed shop, where getting the right car determines your trajectory, but let’s now kid ourselves about Indycar. Penske and Ganassi are the champion makers. It’s no surprise that Indycar champions drive for these 2 teams.

I’m sure if Grosjean had have been dropped into a Penske straight away, we’d have seen the splashes of “brilliance?”that kept him in f1 for so long, but I’d also expect that by now Roger would have tired of the issues and let him go, Kevin Cogan or Ryan Briscoe style.

Using the Scott Dixon and Will Power as examples seems a bit off, they both took to Indycar straight off, but they also both replaced drivers that their team had lost confidence in, giving their teams a real comfort that they were competent replacements. In both cases they both found their way to Indycar because it was the only way up, then found their way into top teams and fitted in well and were smart enough to stay with the teams. I’m sure we can all pick drivers that might have been magic but didn’t quick click. There’s nothing special about their story, both are great drivers who might have been able to succeed in F1 (depending on what you mean by succeed)…

As discussed, this has more to do with f1 politics, but that’s true of any attempted transition from Indycar into f1 for 30 years. Not to personally knock Sergio Perez, but at least 10 Indycar drivers and at least 10 F1 drivers could all do his job at red bull to his current level (and all would happily do so), and Sergio knows it. Plus, if Sergio wanted to take himself to indycar and was given a Penske seat, he would win.
You forgot the greatest upset in this crossover history! Michael Andretti

Though Aidan Millward on YouTube said that it was more to do with the 93 cars being way more advanced than anything in the history of the sport and not much testing time that meant Andretti was nowhere! Not to mention going up against the greatest driver in the history of the sport…Senna!
"The only rule is there are no rules" - Aristotle Onassis

TeamKoolGreen
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Re: Real reasons IndyCar driver champions will never moving to Formula 1 in the future after Sebastien Bourdais

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theriusDR3 wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2024 1:25 pm
Cristiano da Matta and Sébastien Bourdais were the victims of Formula 1 flops after won the CART/Champ Car World Series titles respectively in 2003-2004 and 2008-2009. Both ended up in an uncompetitive machinery and had a same story respectively.

Here are the real reasons of IndyCar driver champions will never moving to Formula 1 in the future after Sebastien Bourdais:
1. Trauma of failure like da Matta and Bourdais
2. Formula 1 competition level is 4 times tougher than IndyCar
3. Ended up in uncompetitive car

Any additions? Alex Palou and Patricio O’Ward must avoid the step of da Matta and Bourdais by staying in IndyCar Series for the long-term rather than moving to Formula 1 in a garbage machinery that limited their winning chances because IndyCar has strong chance of winning races even winning titles.
Montoya was title material as soon as he entered F1 and would have got one if he didn't decide to stupidly bolt to Nascar and whither career away.

TeamKoolGreen
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Re: Real reasons IndyCar driver champions will never moving to Formula 1 in the future after Sebastien Bourdais

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AMG.Tzan wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 8:20 am
feni_remmen wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 5:45 am
A Quick Look at crossovers in both directions shows the hit and miss nature of this.

- ar and was given a Penske seat, he would win.
You forgot the greatest upset in this crossover history! Michael Andretti

Though Aidan Millward on YouTube said that it was more to do with the 93 cars being way more advanced than anything in the history of the sport and not much testing time that meant Andretti was nowhere! Not to mention going up against the greatest driver in the history of the sport…Senna!
The opposite is true for Mario Andretti. CART title winner then F1 champ.

Then we have the Mansells and Fitipaldi's

Seanspeed
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Re: Real reasons IndyCar driver champions will never moving to Formula 1 in the future after Sebastien Bourdais

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Being in an uncompetitive car isn't any big drawback unless you are teamed up with another unknown quantity. If you've got any accolades coming into F1, you'll likely get a fair bit of attention based on that, and then you just have to do well against a teammate that people have some idea of. Not a big hurdle and plenty of drivers have to start out in lesser competitive machinery. Stars will basically always shine, and the solid B tier drivers(Webber, Hulkenberg, Barrichello, etc) will usually find ways to stand out as well.

Bourdais specifically had the unfortunate fate of being partnered with Vettel. Bourdais had a fair bit of F1 test experience so was not super green, and to be beaten so comprehensively by Vettel kind of ended his chances. He had a few flashes, but I think he was rightly passed over eventually. Not that I think he would have been any worse than the Strolls or Buemis or whatever of the world, but we rightfully bemoan those types of drivers sticking around undeservedly as well, so...

feni_remmen
feni_remmen
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Re: Real reasons IndyCar driver champions will never moving to Formula 1 in the future after Sebastien Bourdais

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Seanspeed wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2024 7:16 pm
Being in an uncompetitive car isn't any big drawback unless you are teamed up with another unknown quantity. If you've got any accolades coming into F1, you'll likely get a fair bit of attention based on that, and then you just have to do well against a teammate that people have some idea of. Not a big hurdle and plenty of drivers have to start out in lesser competitive machinery. Stars will basically always shine, and the solid B tier drivers(Webber, Hulkenberg, Barrichello, etc) will usually find ways to stand out as well.

Bourdais specifically had the unfortunate fate of being partnered with Vettel. Bourdais had a fair bit of F1 test experience so was not super green, and to be beaten so comprehensively by Vettel kind of ended his chances. He had a few flashes, but I think he was rightly passed over eventually. Not that I think he would have been any worse than the Strolls or Buemis or whatever of the world, but we rightfully bemoan those types of drivers sticking around undeservedly as well, so...
This is exactly right. The most important thing is gaining reputational momentum and then keeping it. Sometimes having an average car keeps you in the game longer, because we all keep saying “if only he had a top car”… I call it “Jean Alesi Syndrome”. So long as you don’t get crushed by your team mate (or keep beating them), you can keep a career alive for quite a while. It is uncommon to hang around when you consistently loose to a team mate, unless you’re already in a top team and then considered the strong number 2 &or bringing big money. It’s probably more true in F1.
Back to the topic, a top driver from Indycar landing a top seat in f1 is, as we said, very dependant on f1 politics and then very dependant on who your team mate is and how the situation works out in the team. Just like every other new driver, only subject to more scrutiny and pressure from the outside.