Mercedes - the eternal debating abyss.

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munudeges
munudeges
-14
Joined: 10 Jun 2011, 17:08

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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I'm sensing a strange sense of deja vu about this thread.....:

1. They had a large performance lead in 2009 that they shouldn't have started to lose completely by half season. They should certainly have carried it into 2010.

2. They were gifted 100 million by Honda, and once it became clear they had a car that could win the championship Bernie promised them upfront TV money.

3. With this money they ended up as the richest team on the grid at the end of 2009:

http://adamcooperf1.com/2010/09/14/braw ... t-in-2009/

4. They were carrying a lot of money to do whatever they wanted for 2010, and what's more, they knew this money was coming long before the 2009 season ended.

5. The directors made themselves very, very rich.

6. Mercedes and Michael Schumacher walked in because they thought they were on to a winner.

The downtrodden, 'we have no staff, we needed to lay everyone off' image of Brawn that Mercedes somehow inadvertently bought through no fault of their own is just complete crap. The team as an organisation is simply no good, and they've proved that ever since Tyrrell was no more.

Comparisons with Red Bull are even more laughable. Red Bull showed progress from the disaster of Jaguar in all of their years right up to 2009, and 2008 if you count the Torro Rosso which was basically a Red Bull car. Red Bull have also never been in a position where they started winning races and then fell backwards at a massive rate of knots. You've then got Sauber, Force India with the same car and Lotus with their genuine financial problems all outperforming Mercedes now where the team should have no staffing or financial problems whatsoever - not that they ever existed.

There are no excuses for this farcical tin-pot outfit. None. :arrow:

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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wunderkind wrote:Bhallg2k,

Just a minor correction. In 2011, Ferrari made revenues of €2.251billion. Net profit was only €209.1m.

Daimler's 2011 net profit was a little over €6.00billion.
Fair enough. I stand corrected.

I still think talk of Ferrari/Fiat is smoke and mirrors, though. Nothing happening in Maranello changes the fact that Daimler wants to cut €2 billion in costs at Mercedes-Benz.

beelsebob
beelsebob
85
Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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munudeges wrote:I'm sensing a strange sense of deja vu about this thread.....:

1. They had a large performance lead in 2009 that they shouldn't have started to lose completely by half season. They should certainly have carried it into 2010.

2. They were gifted 100 million by Honda, and once it became clear they had a car that could win the championship Bernie promised them upfront TV money.

3. With this money they ended up as the richest team on the grid at the end of 2009:

http://adamcooperf1.com/2010/09/14/braw ... t-in-2009/

4. They were carrying a lot of money to do whatever they wanted for 2010, and what's more, they knew this money was coming long before the 2009 season ended.

5. The directors made themselves very, very rich.

6. Mercedes and Michael Schumacher walked in because they thought they were on to a winner.

The downtrodden, 'we have no staff, we needed to lay everyone off' image of Brawn that Mercedes somehow inadvertently bought through no fault of their own is just complete crap. The team as an organisation is simply no good, and they've proved that ever since Tyrrell was no more.

Comparisons with Red Bull are even more laughable. Red Bull showed progress from the disaster of Jaguar in all of their years right up to 2009, and 2008 if you count the Torro Rosso which was basically a Red Bull car. Red Bull have also never been in a position where they started winning races and then fell backwards at a massive rate of knots. You've then got Sauber, Force India with the same car and Lotus with their genuine financial problems all outperforming Mercedes now where the team should have no staffing or financial problems whatsoever - not that they ever existed.

There are no excuses for this farcical tin-pot outfit. None. :arrow:
Red bull notably had twice as much data to work with though, and effectively twice the budget of even Mercedes.

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FoxHound
55
Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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munudeges wrote:There are no excuses for this farcical tin-pot outfit. None. :arrow:
I'm guessing Red Bull had no excuses for their farcical Year 4 performance?

As for your figures, they have already been dispelled in the "abyss".
JET set

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FoxHound
55
Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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bhallg2k wrote: And you're absolutely right; they've never done anything absent extenuating circumstances.
Er, New sim? Upgraded windtunnel? Got rid of Bigois(what was that about caste off's....He went to Ferrari :oops: ) And went and got the next best available.
bhallg2k wrote:It's beyond me why anyone thinks their hiring of other teams' castoffs is going to turn around 30+ years of abject futility.
So who do they employ? Newey? Not happening now is it.
bhallg2k wrote: Red Bull's success required the hire of the greatest designer the sport has ever seen, circumvention of testing rules via the purchase of another team, and quite simply shitting all over the RRA through the use of Red Bull Technology as a sort of "aerodynamics supplier."
So Red Bull's model of Buying 2 teams and spending 400+ million a year(when the dubious Red Bull technologies and Torro Rosso are included) is a viable proposition for Mercedes?
Of course, Mercedes may make 6 billion a year in profit, but then they do have 260,000 staff to care for don't they :wink:
JET set

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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You win, JET. I'm sold.

I'm off to buy some Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team gear...

mantikos
mantikos
35
Joined: 02 Mar 2011, 17:35

Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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dren wrote:F1 was and still is highly technical. Yes, even back when Brawn was winning with Benneton and Ferrari. He may not be the innovator, but he certainly understands technical concepts and what is going on, far more so than anyone on this site.

Amen! You don't become TD at Ferrari over Bryne, Costa and others and win...without having a technical basis.

TheBaverianBasterd
TheBaverianBasterd
-2
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 11:53

Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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dren wrote:F1 was and still is highly technical. Yes, even back when Brawn was winning with Benneton and Ferrari. He may not be the innovator, but he certainly understands technical concepts and what is going on, far more so than anyone on this site.
Rory Byrne and John Barnard were more important than Ross ever was.

rich1701
rich1701
8
Joined: 11 Sep 2009, 17:09

Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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Give Ross Brawn some credit. In 96 Ferrari had terrible reliability problems. Who can forget the British Gp when both Ferraris broke down. If you look at Ferrari's reliability record before and after Brawn joined the team. The results speak for themselves. Ferrari went from having problems almost every race to 2 or 3 reliability issues a season.

Mysticf1
Mysticf1
0
Joined: 29 Jan 2010, 17:20

Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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Via Wikipedia
Brawn was hired by Sir Frank Williams in 1978 as a machinist for the newly formed Williams team. He quickly moved up through the ranks, working in the R&D department and as an aerodynamicist in the team's wind tunnel.[4]
After brief stints with the now-defunct Haas Lola and Arrows F1 teams, in 1989 Brawn moved to the Jaguar sports car racing division, and was lead designer on the Jaguar XJR-14 which won the 1991 World Sportscar Championship.[5][4]
Hardly a dunce when it comes to the technical aspects

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dren
226
Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 14:14

Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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TheBaverianBasterd wrote:
dren wrote:F1 was and still is highly technical. Yes, even back when Brawn was winning with Benneton and Ferrari. He may not be the innovator, but he certainly understands technical concepts and what is going on, far more so than anyone on this site.
Rory Byrne and John Barnard were more important than Ross ever was.
Okay, that's fine. I never said they weren't.
Honda!

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Shakeman
33
Joined: 21 Mar 2011, 13:31
Location: UK

Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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Mysticf1 wrote:Via Wikipedia
Brawn was hired by Sir Frank Williams in 1978 as a machinist for the newly formed Williams team. He quickly moved up through the ranks, working in the R&D department and as an aerodynamicist in the team's wind tunnel.[4]
After brief stints with the now-defunct Haas Lola and Arrows F1 teams, in 1989 Brawn moved to the Jaguar sports car racing division, and was lead designer on the Jaguar XJR-14 which won the 1991 World Sportscar Championship.[5][4]
Hardly a dunce when it comes to the technical aspects
I think some are being particularly hard on someone who has delivered at the top level for many years. Merc hasn't gone the best but just saving Honda/Brawn was a huge achievement let alone getting a world championship.

In the dull days of Schu/Ferrari the team were always one step ahead in the race with strategy largely credited to Brawn. Macca have shown it's child's play to end a season with nothing even with a mostly dominant car so Brawn and co were doing something right for all those years of success. A run of success that may not ever be equalled while not all down to Brawn no one could reasonably say he didn't play his part.

TheBaverianBasterd
TheBaverianBasterd
-2
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 11:53

Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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Mysticf1 wrote:Via Wikipedia
Brawn was hired by Sir Frank Williams in 1978 as a machinist for the newly formed Williams team. He quickly moved up through the ranks, working in the R&D department and as an aerodynamicist in the team's wind tunnel.[4]
After brief stints with the now-defunct Haas Lola and Arrows F1 teams, in 1989 Brawn moved to the Jaguar sports car racing division, and was lead designer on the Jaguar XJR-14 which won the 1991 World Sportscar Championship.[5][4]
Hardly a dunce when it comes to the technical aspects
With Ross's distinguished technical expertise, shouldn't Mercedes be fielding a worldbeater right now?

Neno
Neno
-29
Joined: 31 May 2010, 01:41

Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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TheBaverianBasterd wrote:
Mysticf1 wrote:Via Wikipedia
Brawn was hired by Sir Frank Williams in 1978 as a machinist for the newly formed Williams team. He quickly moved up through the ranks, working in the R&D department and as an aerodynamicist in the team's wind tunnel.[4]
After brief stints with the now-defunct Haas Lola and Arrows F1 teams, in 1989 Brawn moved to the Jaguar sports car racing division, and was lead designer on the Jaguar XJR-14 which won the 1991 World Sportscar Championship.[5][4]
Hardly a dunce when it comes to the technical aspects
With Ross's distinguished technical expertise, shouldn't Mercedes be fielding a worldbeater right now?
Well even Ross can't cure Honda DNA. He managed make temporary cure for 2009 season, but disease was back immediatly. :-k

flmkane
flmkane
13
Joined: 08 Oct 2012, 08:13

Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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Obviously y'all didn't read the thread.

People said Mercedes sucked, Ross Brawn was stupid and there were too many people in the team.

Some people (including me) explained why they believed that to be untrue.

And then.... people ask us why Mercedes are no world champions, without looking back at the whole list of reasons a page or two back.

Hence the cycle repeats.

I'm sorry mods, I'll stop replying on threads like this. No point feeding the trolls