Sauber C32 Ferrari

[Huntresa]

Upvote from me and i have to say +1 just to add another


You rly summed it up and showed what we all needed to see, especially those doubting this gr8 sidepod design.

Would be another +1 if you had made all the pics into 1 pic so you could open it and scroll down without having to open them all.

To be honest, I actually think the post demonstrates a remarkable lack of interesting content. Mostly, it's just a very long version of "things with big surface areas facing the wind have lots of drag", which is rather obvious. What would be much more interesting to see is some actual models of where the air goes around the sauber's side pods. My personal bet is that it is not just the traditional "it flows round the bottom, we use it at the rear".

Yeah ofc but mostly what i meant was that the post will surely silence the critics and those even saying this sidepod design isnt as small as we think it is.

And yeah they would be dumb if they didnt do more with it if they gain as much as we think they do, only thing we can see is the nose being lower for the most logical reason being that the diffuser would be over feed otherwise.

[Artur Craft]

To be honest, I actually think the post demonstrates a remarkable lack of interesting content. Mostly, it's just a very long version of "things with big surface areas facing the wind have lots of drag", which is rather obvious. What would be much more interesting to see is some actual models of where the air goes around the sauber's side pods. My personal bet is that it is not just the traditional "it flows round the bottom, we use it at the rear".

Oh, no. My point was not about drag, even though that is a big gain on it too.

Drag is the trivial thing in this issue.

The point was about big coke bottle areas which don't have as much flow as needed into it because of having bodywork restricting it. This will create low pressure area there(where few airflow reachs it) and it will significantly reduce downforce

Or at least that's what I expect it to do, is there anybody with CFD access here?

Additionally, I think some teams are opting for a more of on trottle downforce biased while others are more biased towards having more downforce off throttle(when exhaust gases won't have their effect anymore)

[beelsebob]

To be honest, I actually think the post demonstrates a remarkable lack of interesting content. Mostly, it's just a very long version of "things with big surface areas facing the wind have lots of drag", which is rather obvious. What would be much more interesting to see is some actual models of where the air goes around the sauber's side pods. My personal bet is that it is not just the traditional "it flows round the bottom, we use it at the rear".

Oh, no. My point was not about drag, even though that is a big gain on it too.

Drag is the trivial thing in this issue.

The point was about big coke bottle areas which don't have as much flow as needed into it because of having bodywork restricting it. This will create low pressure area there(where few airflow reachs it) and it will significantly reduce downforce

Or at least that's what I expect it to do, is there anybody with CFD access here?

"Creates a big low pressure zone behind it" is mostly another term for "has a lot of drag"

[Nando]

We of course don't exactly know how teams redistribute weight, but it is limited; you need to have this very strict rear to front ratio calculated in, combined with the minimum weight. Possibly, and this might a wild guess, this is the reason why they lowered the nose. They might have increased the mass of it and lowered it to correct the CoG.
They might also use heavier materials for the floor.

I doubt the reason for the lower nose being CoG. I think they would only do so for aerodynamic's reasons.

The CoG issue is often brought up but, in reality, teams are all overlooking it(to some extent). They will try to lower their CoG only if it doesn't compromise downforce in anyway.

In this interview to Peter Windsor and Scarbs, Force India's Technical Director, Andrew Green, at some point, says about the better aerodynamics of the vanity pannel: "The numbers from the tunnel are very small, but it doesn't take a very big aerodynamic gain to offset a mass, center of gravity disadvantadge. The aero number wins by quite a margin...."
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SioY0N69zk[/youtube]

This interview make a very positive effect on any further related discussion that we might have in the forum, regardless of the car in question!

Aerodynamic gains easily offset higher CoG

On the other hand you have Newey saying any bigger vanity panel then what they run would be unjustifiable.
And they run a tiny little thing on the RB.

[lillschumi]

I think it´s quite obvious where they have stuffed the things, longer and fater and a lot less floor if you ask me. I think it could be a miss even though i like that someone does something different to try to find a advantage. But as some others have pointed out it´s not magic they have just choosed another layout.

The picture of the Sauber there is terrible. You can't see how much floor it have on the sides of it.

Their undercut is even bigger than most teams, you're not looking correctly to it. Use the floor edges as reference.

See it here:


Not only the upper part is tighter than the on C31's sidepod, but the bottom have much more clearance in the floor

I still not agreeing with you but i don´t have the urge to draw to much because it´s there if you want to see it. The picures yo are showing proves the point, yes the might joint the floor at same with but look at¨vertical line of the undercut

Edit:
Hmm second thought maybe your right, they might be unbelively small.

[Huntresa]

I still not agreeing with you but i don´t have the urge to draw to much because it´s there if you want to see it. The picures yo are showing proves the point, yes the might joint the floor at same with but look at¨vertical line of the undercut

But that pic and every other pic of this car shows it has just as much space between the sidepod wall and the floor edge, even more then some like Ferrari who are strapped for space at the ineviabtle bulge coming from the sidepod.

My example in pics,

[Artur Craft]

"Creates a big low pressure zone behind it" is mostly another term for "has a lot of drag"

yeah, and it will reduce downforce too. Lower pressure pushing the car forward and downward

Picking another thing, it's really curious how Sauber seems the only car I've seen that doesn't use rear wings upper flap's trailing edge to max height, as somebody pointed way earlier. Wonder if they will stick with that

@Nando, that's why I wish we had tire's technical information available to us. With that, we could estimate how much is lost in overall force when CoG is +/-1cm higher or so. But that will never happen, I bet.

[GrizzleBoy]

Basically, the point is:

- A car like the F138 has a dramatic coke bottle area so the amount the air needs to "turn" back in towards the car after navigating the front of the sidepods will cause separation, therefore drag, slower air speed at the rear of the car and less downfoce as a result.

- A car like the C32 has less of an undercut, but the gentler flow/curvature of the bodywork would retain more laminar air flow, so less drag and more air to be used to create downforce by the relevant bodywork/wings.
?

I also think having the exhaust bulge on the vertical face of a vertically orientated side pod would mean that flow around the sides of the car would be sped up as the exhaust pushes masses of air backwards. Hence pulling air in from in front of it, helping the car to be even more slippery.

Designs like the McLaren/Ferrari "wing" sidepods accelerate air over the top of the "wings", which is how airplanes create lift.

The top of the saubers sidepods may also create lift due to the fact that it can flow over the top of it easier than into the sidepod, but the actual top surface is much smaller compared to the wide "wings" the other cars have, so that lift effect could be minimalized without much effort.

[Huntresa]

Basically, the point is:

- A car like the F138 has a dramatic coke bottle area so the amount the air needs to "turn" back in towards the car after navigating the front of the sidepods will cause separation, therefore drag, slower air speed at the rear of the car and less downfoce as a result.

- A car like the C32 has less of an undercut, but the gentler flow/curvature of the bodywork would retain more laminar air flow, so less drag and more air to be used to create downforce by the relevant bodywork/wings.
?

I also think having the exhaust bulge on the vertical face of a vertically orientated side pod would mean that flow around the sides of the car would be sped up as the exhaust pushes masses of air backwards. Hence pulling air in from in front of it, helping the car to be even more slippery.

Designs like the McLaren/Ferrari "wing" sidepods accelerate air over the top of the "wings", which how airplanes create lift.

The top of the saubers sidepods may also create lift due to the fact that it can flow over the top of it easier than into the sidepod, but the actual top surface is much smaller compared to the wide "wings" the other cars have, so that lift effect could be minimalized without much effort.

I wish Sauber designer would just come down on us and say we are all correct

[Nando]

If Sauber starts on front row in Australia all hell will break loose

[munudeges]

Very, very surprised they dropped the exhaust arrangement they had last season I have to say.

[Artur Craft]

I still not agreeing with you but i don´t have the urge to draw to much because it´s there if you want to see it. The picures yo are showing proves the point, yes the might joint the floor at same with but look at¨vertical line of the undercut

Edit:
Hmm second thought maybe your right, they might be unbelively small.

I think that's the point. In C32 it goes up vertically to the upper sidepod, while in C31 it goes up with an outwards direction. This gives an impression of the undercut being bigger on C31 but if you compare it with the floor, it isn't, it's the opposite
http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/1150/c31c32.jpg

Further behind, Ferrari's and Mercedes' rear ends are indeed more empty, but Sauber is roughly equal to all the others it seems in the angles I've seen so far.

[Rikhart]

I still not agreeing with you but i don´t have the urge to draw to much because it´s there if you want to see it. The picures yo are showing proves the point, yes the might joint the floor at same with but look at¨vertical line of the undercut

Edit:
Hmm second thought maybe your right, they might be unbelively small.

I think that's the point. In C32 it goes up vertically to the upper sidepod, while in C31 it goes up with an outwards direction. This gives an impression of the undercut being bigger on C31 but if you compare it with the floor, it isn't, it's the opposite
http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/1150/c31c32.jpg

Further behind, Ferrari's and Mercedes' rear ends are indeed more empty, but Sauber is roughly equal to all the others it seems in the angles I've seen so far.

Even on the examples you provide, you can see how much more further back the sidepods go. They aren´t really all that small, just really stretched back and lower, instead of a horizontal bulge, then huge floor space like the top teams do. It´s less a coke bottle shape, and more a rectangle, if you want.
Like others have said, it´s a different and innovative design direction, let´s see how it pays off. But overall bodywork area is roughly the same.

[Artur Craft]

Even on the examples you provide, you can see how much more further back the sidepods go. They aren´t really all that small, just really stretched back and lower, instead of a horizontal bulge, then huge floor space like the top teams do. It´s less a coke bottle shape, and more a rectangle, if you want.
Like others have said, it´s a different and innovative design direction, let´s see how it pays off. But overall bodywork area is roughly the same.

I partially agree with you there. There is bodywork a bit behind and lower where on Ferrari there is no bodywork anymore.

But I think Red Bull have about the same coke bottle area as Sauber. The difference is that RB, and some others, have a little tunnel in the trailing edge of sidepod going towards the exhaust, in order not to mix the airflow coming from undercut with exhaust plume "driven" by the downwash from upside of sidepod, I guess.

Ferrari's one is way too agressive in that aspect, imho. Let's see how this all be unfold, I'm really curious with it.

[Mui]

Basically, the point is:

- A car like the F138 has a dramatic coke bottle area so the amount the air needs to "turn" back in towards the car after navigating the front of the sidepods will cause separation, therefore drag, slower air speed at the rear of the car and less downfoce as a result. I agree with you here but they do have more incoming air though

- A car like the C32 has less of an undercut, but the gentler flow/curvature of the bodywork would retain more laminar air flow, so less drag and more air to be used to create downforce by the relevant bodywork/wings.
?I agree with you that it has a gentler angle but volume of air that it can use is limited because of its low nose(everything in front of the cockpit) and not to mention how the inlet of of the sidepods are very tall. It is however more efficient in the use of air because of the gentler angle.

I also think having the exhaust bulge on the vertical face of a vertically orientated side pod would mean that flow around the sides of the car would be sped up as the exhaust pushes masses of air backwards. Hence pulling air in from in front of it, helping the car to be even more slippery.Definitely this thing is going to be a speed king just like last year

Designs like the McLaren/Ferrari "wing" sidepods accelerate air over the top of the "wings", which is how airplanes create lift.

The top of the saubers sidepods may also create lift due to the fact that it can flow over the top of it easier than into the sidepod, but the actual top surface is much smaller compared to the wide "wings" the other cars have, so that lift effect could be minimalized without much effort.

I guess saubers philosophy is more on speed and efficiency of getting air from the front of the car to the rear. Lower front end and tall sidepod inlets backs this up. Ferrari philosophy is probably more on volume but thats not up for discussion here.