2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

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GPR-A
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by GPR-A » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:58 am

Big Mangalhit wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:49 am
What about Perez. I see such a splendid driver there. He was always fast and ballsy but now he seems also mature, composed and consistent. I think he should be the replacement for Kimi. Especially with his ties with Carlos Slim and the untapped Mexican market
He has always been weak in qualifying. Check his qualifying record against Hulk, he has always been weaker. Though he was better in races. He is only staying ahead of Ocon as he is a rookie. In a battle with Mercedes and specifically with Hamilton, you need a driver who can extract every hundredth available in a car and I don't think Perez is that driver.

On the other hand, look at Grosjean's performance in 2013 lotus and last year at Haas. He is a good qualifier and a race driver. He can do similar moves that Ricciardo does, when has the right car.

Phil
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by Phil » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:21 am

Sevach wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:55 am
Phil wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:39 am
I fully expect Ferrari to turn up the heat at the FIA regarding the hydraulic suspension system that Merc seems to be using. Dont hate the players, hate the game.

If this is how Mercedes is making the tires work and extracting performance, its not something that Ferrari is doing (no hydraulic suspension system) and its not something they can easily adopt. I fully expect them to turn up the heat on a political level. Which team wouldnt?
I think they could find some time and consistency gains with it, i don't see why it wouldn't work for them.

Of course simply taking it away hurts Mercedes more than Ferrari going through the trouble of developing and setting it up.
My line of thinking is that the Ferrari seems to be quite a good package. Simpler and it handles the tires well. A good all-rounder in a sense.

Mercedes, i feel, are the aggressive player here. They have gone for a complex aero platform, one they understood. Low rake, but long wheelbase. They got a few things wrong - the car was overweight and the complexity in conjunction with the tires created a headache in that the car has a narrower operating window. The tightening of the rules regarding connected sunspension must have hurt a lot too.

Yet somehow they found another way to make their low rake car work and get the tires working properly and i think that hydraulic suspension system is playing a key role. Another key factor was getting the second oil that Ferrari must have been using banned.

This has put Ferrari on the back foot by quite a margin.

I personally think that the suspension system that Mercedes is now using is in a big grey area and perhaps could be perhaps bordering on being an "active component" (a question of how you look at it, i guess).

So i think we will see some movement here. On the other hand, Ferrari could well adopt it too, but what would the gain be? Even if they did, i honestly believe Mercedes car has the superior package. It just wasnt working yet beginning of the season.

If Ferrari could get it banned (and i suppose the FIA would be happy to oblige if it results in a closer championship), things might be closer again.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. (Ask the average Vettel fan what that's like.) --- bhall II
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Big Mangalhit
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by Big Mangalhit » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:22 pm

GPR-A wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:58 am
Big Mangalhit wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:49 am
What about Perez. I see such a splendid driver there. He was always fast and ballsy but now he seems also mature, composed and consistent. I think he should be the replacement for Kimi. Especially with his ties with Carlos Slim and the untapped Mexican market
He has always been weak in qualifying. Check his qualifying record against Hulk, he has always been weaker. Though he was better in races. He is only staying ahead of Ocon as he is a rookie. In a battle with Mercedes and specifically with Hamilton, you need a driver who can extract every hundredth available in a car and I don't think Perez is that driver.

On the other hand, look at Grosjean's performance in 2013 lotus and last year at Haas. He is a good qualifier and a race driver. He can do similar moves that Ricciardo does, when has the right car.
Perhaps you are right but is it that starightforward?
f1316 wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:55 pm
So the pairing of Hulk and Perez has come to an end. These two - perhaps with Maldonado, Di Resta and Grosjean, maybe Ricciardo at a push - form what I'd characterise as a specific generation of drivers to make it into F1. They are as distinct from the Hamilton, Piquet, Vettel generation as they are from Verstappen, Sainz, Werhlein (maybe Guittierez was on the cusp) etc.

So it was interesting seeing them go head to head because it gave us the chance to directly compare two of the better drivers from that generation.

To start with, here are some stats:

qualifying

2014 Hulk 12-7 Perez; hulk wins by .473
2015 Hulk 11-8 Perez; hulk wins by .395
2016 Hulk 12-9 Perez; hulk wins by .071

Overall: Hulk 35-24

drivers' championship points

2014 Hulk 96;Perez 59
2015 Hulk 58; Perez 78
2016 Hulk 72; Perez 101

Overall: Hulk 226; Perez 238

Podiums: Hulk 0; Perez 4
Clearly Perez has improved over the years even on quali side. Also we can't discard the hypothesis that Hulk can be an exceptional qualifier, indeed he seem to be also a quasi top tier driver himself.

Has for Grosjean 2013 season I always got the impression that he improved by a LOT when Kimi was signed to Ferrari, then he had the backing of the team and started shadowing Kimi, but before that point he was behind by quite a margin.

I am not saying he is not good ofc he is, nor am I saying that Perez is a god qualifier, he is not.
But overall I have the impression that Perez is the better driver, although it is very very hard to compare.
But does Ferrari really need a driver that got beaten by Kimi... twice, albeit in probably two of kimi's best seasons and he has since then evolved a bit (just maybe not as much as perez?)

Moose
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by Moose » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:23 pm

TwanV wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:26 am
Moose wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:10 am
Well, the obvious way would be by having the fastest car on the grid.
That is quite an expectation.. :wtf:
Is it? I mean... they're in F1. Not only that, they're one of the top teams in F1.

If you stop expecting that their goal, and their achievable level is to produce a car that can win races and championships, because Mercedes will "always" be dominant, then I have no idea what you think anyone is doing in this sport?

TwanV
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by TwanV » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:02 pm

Moose wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:23 pm
TwanV wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:26 am
Moose wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:10 am
Well, the obvious way would be by having the fastest car on the grid.
That is quite an expectation.. :wtf:
Is it? I mean... they're in F1. Not only that, they're one of the top teams in F1.

If you stop expecting that their goal, and their achievable level is to produce a car that can win races and championships, because Mercedes will "always" be dominant, then I have no idea what you think anyone is doing in this sport?
Well of course, but seeing where they are coming from it is quite an impressive season so far. At least, impressive enough not to start firing half the staff, which was my point. Don't know if you remember last year but they more or less made up a second and a half on lap time this year against Mercedes. Now they're lagging a bit on the high speed tracks true but I would be surprised if Merc were clearly ahead on the tracks not ideally suited to a long wheelbase.

Jano11
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by Jano11 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:15 pm

TwanV wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:02 pm
What is this nonsense Arrivabenne bashing.. Sorry Ferrari has made a big if not the biggest step this year, look at where red bull is, look at the championship table and watch the 2016 review . The Mercedes has finally been fixed now in terms of balance but Ferrari dialed in since race 1. How could the team have done a better job?
As you rightly say, Mercedes have improved a lot since the start of the season, great work, well done!
What about Ferrari? They lost out. Their improvements are nowhere near those of Mercedes. That's a fail, just like last year and the year before, and the team manager has to bear the consequences. F1 is not public administration where a sense of entitlement keeps you at the top.
TwanV wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:26 am
Moose wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:10 am
TwanV wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:02 pm
What is this nonsense Arrivabenne bashing.. Sorry Ferrari has made a big if not the biggest step this year, look at where red bull is, look at the championship table and watch the 2016 review . The Mercedes had finally been fixed now in terms of balance but Ferrari dialed in since race 1. How could the team have done a better job?
Well, the obvious way would be by having the fastest car on the grid.
That is quite an expectation.. :wtf:
You think that Ferrari pays Arrivabene to make sure that they are 2nd or 3rd?!
Last edited by Jano11 on Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jano11
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by Jano11 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:17 pm

alexx_88 wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:22 am
Big Mangalhit wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:55 am
Sure Arrivabene is failing horribly. He is leading the team that improved the most, that has the leading driver of the WDC after half a championship even after everybody said in winter they were doomed because they lost the prodigious TD. I wonder what you think of Horner that everybody said RB would dominate this aero overhaul but they lost second place. What do you think of all the others team principals, are they succeeding? I really can't see how anybody can say Arrivabene is "failing horribly".
Funnily enough, the team that got the "prodigious TD" has clearly outdeveloped them since that same TD joined at the beginning of the year.
Well said!

Jano11
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by Jano11 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:23 pm

Phil wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:39 am
I fully expect Ferrari to turn up the heat at the FIA regarding the hydraulic suspension system that Merc seems to be using. Dont hate the players, hate the game.

If this is how Mercedes is making the tires work and extracting performance, its not something that Ferrari is doing (no hydraulic suspension system) and its not something they can easily adopt. I fully expect them to turn up the heat on a political level. Which team wouldnt?
Maybe if Marchione does it himself.
Arrivabene just rolls over what ever come at him. Back in 2006 Renault's mass damper was banned because it was improving aerodynamic stability. Nowadays Mercedes' funky semi-active heated hydraulic suspension is not even questioned. Todt and Brawn were predators, Maurizio is the deer.
GPR-A wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:46 am
So, it all starts. Calling for heads. So predictable of some people (not sure what they smoke) on Ferrari forum.
If I was a Mercedes fan I would also hope that Arrivabene stays! :mrgreen:

Jano11
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by Jano11 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:34 pm

TwanV wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:02 pm
Moose wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:23 pm
TwanV wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:26 am

That is quite an expectation.. :wtf:
Is it? I mean... they're in F1. Not only that, they're one of the top teams in F1.

If you stop expecting that their goal, and their achievable level is to produce a car that can win races and championships, because Mercedes will "always" be dominant, then I have no idea what you think anyone is doing in this sport?
Well of course, but seeing where they are coming from it is quite an impressive season so far. At least, impressive enough not to start firing half the staff, which was my point. Don't know if you remember last year but they more or less made up a second and a half on lap time this year against Mercedes. Now they're lagging a bit on the high speed tracks true but I would be surprised if Merc were clearly ahead on the tracks not ideally suited to a long wheelbase.
A host of rules have been changed for this season, chassis, aero, tires size, engine development allowed.
If they can not make a serious step up with all that money Marchione is throwing at them, then they are failing.
They started well with a nice situation, and instead of building on it they dropped the ball. It was Arrivabene's job to make sure that this does not happen, and he failed, again.

dans79
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by dans79 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:48 pm

Phil wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:21 am
I personally think that the suspension system that Mercedes is now using is in a big grey area and perhaps could be perhaps bordering on being an "active component" (a question of how you look at it, i guess).
Phil wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:21 am
If Ferrari could get it banned (and i suppose the FIA would be happy to oblige if it results in a closer championship), things might be closer again.
Didn't Charlie already say it was legal though?

I mean if they start telling teams where they can and can't put hydraulic lines, where does that line of thought stop?

How you route the fuel lines, oil lines, and power cables, can all yield performance benefits, will the FIA start mandating locations for them as well?

Sevach
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by Sevach » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:48 pm

Actually...
Mclaren, aka Ron Dennis, was the team that got mass dampers banned, Ferrari was one of the teams running mass dampers in fact.

TwanV
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by TwanV » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:04 pm

Haha OMG where have I got myself into. Look guys, I'm not a Ferrari fan, never have been never will be. If you want to chastise yourself over your team coming home second, so be it have fun.

GPR-A
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by GPR-A » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:31 pm

Jano11 wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:23 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:46 am
So, it all starts. Calling for heads. So predictable of some people (not sure what they smoke) on Ferrari forum.
If I was a Mercedes fan I would also hope that Arrivabene stays! :mrgreen:
It's a pity if Ferrari has fans like you. Seriously.

I am sure you are not alone and a clan of people like you have been existing since 2009. People like you demanded Aldo Costa to be fired, Luca Marmorini be fired, Stefano Domenicali be fired, Nicolas tombazis be fired, Nick Fry be fired, Neil Martin be fired, Hirohide Hamashima be fired and then Montezemolo be fired. It is widely believed that the new management of Sergio Marchionne pushed Allison out. What did Ferrari achieve really with all those firings? Now you are on to Arrivabene. It would not be too long before you demand Mattia Binnotto be fired. It has always set the atmosphere of fear with people who work. On the contrary, how many firings did you hear at Mercedes from 2010?

It shows the thought process (or lack of it) that exists in your brains. You people never believe in continuity of people and persistence in development of concepts.

Jano11
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by Jano11 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:42 pm

GPR-A wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:31 pm
Jano11 wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:23 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:46 am
So, it all starts. Calling for heads. So predictable of some people (not sure what they smoke) on Ferrari forum.
If I was a Mercedes fan I would also hope that Arrivabene stays! :mrgreen:
It's a pity if Ferrari has fans like you. Seriously.
Sure it is.
27 years supporting them through good and bad is a pity.
I will always support Ferrari for what they stand, however I will not support mediocrity, and certainly not from the same people making the same mistakes and failing again and again.

GPR-A wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:31 pm
I am sure you are not alone and a clan of people like you have been existing since 2009. People like you demanded Aldo Costa to be fired, Luca Marmorini be fired, Stefano Domenicali be fired, Nicolas tombazis be fired, Nick Fry be fired, Neil Martin be fired, Hirohide Hamashima be fired and then Montezemolo be fired. It is widely believed that the new management of Sergio Marchionne pushed Allison out. What did Ferrari achieve really with all those firings? Now you are on to Arrivabene. It would not be too long before you demand Mattia Binnotto be fired. It has always set the atmosphere of fear with people who work. On the contrary, how many firings did you hear at Mercedes from 2010?

It shows the thought process (or lack of it) that exists in your brains. You people never believe in continuity of people and persistence in development of concepts.
FYI I have never called for any of engineers to be fired, I did however ask for the team principal to go when they failed several years in a row.

F1NAC
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

Post by F1NAC » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:24 pm

GPR-A wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:46 am
So, it all starts. Calling for heads. So predictable of some people (not sure what they smoke) on Ferrari forum.

For those who want to be optimistic, this is a great platform with the new regulations that Ferrari have created. There is less noise and more work and of course the current pace of work is not enough to beat Mercedes. But nevertheless, credit should go to Arrivabene to have ensured that things move in right direction, after Allison chose to leave. It was a point, where everyone thought it was doom for Ferrari, but the new leadership and the team below has responded splendidly. This is the first year for Mattia Binnoto and things have looked optimistic. They need to push on.

LIke I mentioned elsewhere, they need a strong pair of drivers, who can fight for victories and one can hold fort while the other is having a bad day. That way, they can help each other by holding the opposition teams. The risk of having a poor No.2 is, when the car development goes slightly against the style of their No.1 OR their No.1 is having a bad day, they stand to lose badly.

Grosjean can do what Bottas is doing at Mercedes, may be even better than Bottas. If I am Arrivabene, I would do the swap right away. They should forget about getting Verstappen or Ricciardo for 2018, who both have water tight contracts with Red Bull. Alonso would be the right fit, but it would probably never happen.
I think you're onto something. They need one Haas seat available for 2018. If not for Gio it must be for Leclerc who has God given talent. This guy is just from another planet it seems. Probably GRO could got 1 year in FER if they don't give RAI another year, which with this prefomance is most likely. I mean I love Kimi but more i like consistency from him. He was good at GB but lets be real, as soon as he tried to close to HAM, he got owned lap after by sec or more. TBH there isnt in my opinion any driver that could do much more in Kimi's situation beside maybe ALO (speaking about drivers that are free for 2018)