Was Verstappen's 5 Second Penalty Fair?

[Sieper]

The dutch crashed the website? You've monitored the traffic?

This is getting more then a bit old.

[Edax]

....

Reassesing the situation with a wall would end up in a wreck. At the apex there was less than a tires width between raikkonens tires and the white line. Now the RB is one of the skinnier cars but you need a serious size zero to fit in that gap.

So blindly following the rules would mean penalising VES for overtaking offline, and RAI for not leaving a cars width. Make it 5 seconds each.

If RB really wanted to they could have protested RAI for not leaving space. That could reverse the result while saving the FIA the embarrassment of reversing a descision.

But I guess RB is actually fine with this result. It has delivered them tons of positive media attention, they didn’t need the points anyway, and they have gained some serious leverage with the FIA. After being scorned by just about every famous racing driver around, and by having their website crashed by angry dutch fans, the FIA will think twice about every potential future judgement against RB.

Exactly, VER would not have pulled that move when a wall was present. He would have ended up behind RAI on that corner.

RAI was ahead of him , i.e. not ahead of his front wheel. The corner is a tight right hander, RAI was on the racing line.

Results cannot be changed. The decision is done. C Horner has met with the stewards who explained it was unfair advantage.

No, I sincerely hope not, they should and will penalise MV and RBR if any infringement occurs in the future. Its their duty to do so.
And crashing the FIA website hasnt changed the results, has it - and I thought the Dutch are better

One of the problems is that this is a double apex curve. The first apex goes fine, both have sufficient space and max pulls alonside four wheels firmly on the black, at the exit of that part Max has his axle in front of the rear axle of Raikonen, which is a significant part.

Then Raikonen aims for the second apex ( as he stated he didn’t know max was there), leaving max little option than to jump the curb. Technically there was space to have half a wheel on the white line but as someone argued running the off camber curb might be asking for trouble. (And ferrari is pretty itchy about scratches on their red paint).

So if you see it as two separate corners then the case is crystal clear VES, was entitled to a cars width at the second apex.

If you see the complex as a single corner then it gets a bit murkier, and yes Raikkonen was ahead at entry. However Raikonen was wide from the normal entry point, and left more space at the first apex than normal. Maybe he wanted to block off a cross from verstappen by going in wider. But then he changes over to the racing line crowding VES. It was not intentional, but I don’t think it is in the spirit of the rules to first create a gap and then slam it shut as the other is committed. That is what the whole changing line, leaving track space and moving under braking rules are about.

[Sieper]

True. Just as true as Max indeed leaving the track. Stewards could have left this alone and I think most would have accepted that as fair.

[NathanOlder]

Ok, i think i have managed to make this all fair with the same result.

Everyone (I mean every single driver) was running wide on the exit of T9 and T19 lap after lap, So give them all a two 5 second penalties.

Then to add to that....

Max cut the inside of T17, Give him a 5 second penalty and he drops behind kimi.

Bottas kept his position against Ricciardo on the Exit of T1 off the track, give him a 5 second penalty, he had 30 seconds of empty track behind him so keeps his position.

Sainz ran off the circuit while passing Perez, give him a 5 second penalty, he was the last car on the lead lap so keeps his position.

Vettel made his move on Hamilton on lap 1 stick while off the track, give him a 5 second penalty. He keeps 2nd as he was 5.7 in front of Kimi.

So after all that we have the same result, everyone was punished and we can move on.

Close thread.

[Sieper]

Oh wait, an additional 5 seconds for kimi, quick reopen thread:

http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/7271179/bcc16286

[adrianjordan]

To me there are 2 parts to this; was the penalty correct? Well as per the rules, yes it was. Was it fair? No, because they haven't been consistent in handing out penalties.

[Scorpaguy]

...Had Kimi cut the corner, MV would not have gotten by. Kimi would have been penalized.

However, the issue is with COTA. For those that have not been on the tarmac...the runoff/shoulder areas are absurd. It is not the calls of Marshals that is creating this controversy...it is these sissy tracks that allow for racing TOTALLY off "track". If tracks still went from racing line to grass/gravel, these things would not happen...nor would MV be considered a prodigy.

[Fulcrum]

Personally, when applying a penalty, the question I would ask myself as a steward is:

A - was the overtake conducted in a fair manner?
B - why did he leave the track?
C - was an advantage gained by leaving the track? if yes, how much of an advantage was gained?
D - was the move potentially dangerous?

What irks me about the penalty is point #B & #C.

I have now watched the incident numerous times and IMO, it is very clear that there is a gap when Max decides to go for it. He was carrying more speed and taking a more direct path into a gap that was there. When Max moved along side (he was already partly alongside), Kimi starts to move in to the corner to the apex. Max had three options: Brake hard (might not have been enough), stay alongside and hope Kimi sees him in time or take avoiding action. Max decided to do the latter. He moved to the right which put his trajectory beyond the track limits at 250kmh. At that point, he's a passenger in his own car. Braking no longer becomes an option, neither does turning in or not. At that point, Kimi had already realized Max was there and left room.

This goes directly into point #C - Was an advantage gained by leaving the track? Yes and no. He clearly shortened the track by taking that path, but there was no reason to. Kimi did leave space (at that point probably conceding the position), so even if Max had stayed on the corner inside line (perhaps with two wheels), he would have been side by side and made the corner and most likely taken the position. So in my opinion, the advantage he gained is smaller and was not necessary. There was room there. Unfortunately, Max at that point couldn't react to that and change his trajectory, he was already committed. So all in all, *I* would not have penalized him on that reasoning.

Now if the situation had been different, for example Kimi covering the inside line and Max moving beyond the track to "short-cut" the corner to get by, well that would be a clear offense. I think the fact that Max reacted to Kimi while already being sufficiently along side and therefore "being forced off the track" is what caused this entire incident in the first place. I feel had the stewards looked at it from this point-of-view, that the result would have been more accepted by fans and spectators and perhaps even the drivers. I'm not even sure Kimi realized (taking his post-race comments) that Max was momentarily off the track and had already conceded finishing in 4th.

An alternative viewpoint expressed within the same logical framework.

A - was the overtake conducted in a fair manner? No, refer to point C.
B - why did he leave the track? To gain an advantage.
C - was an advantage gained by leaving the track? if yes, how much of an advantage was gained? Yes, 3 points and the prestige of a podium.
D - was the move potentially dangerous? By your own logic, yes; it was a marginal overtaking situation that relied on the - at least - partial compliance of another driver.

[NathanOlder]

Oh wait, an additional 5 seconds for kimi, quick reopen thread:

http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/7271179/bcc16286

What have you done man! I had it wrapped up, finished, now you have opened another can of worms this thread will live until 2018 at least!

[Sieper]

By friday we have all but forgotten (Let's hope). On to Mexico.

[Silent Storm]

No
And this from a proponent of making them stay between the lines, but you cannot allow drivers to do the same all day then change the rule just to punish Max because Gary doesn't like him.

Nobody else overtook another car by going off track, Max was the only one who did it and came ahead of Kimi and was penalised for it.

[marmer]

Just on the overtake with bottas. Yes he pushed bottas wide however bottas lost control defending and locked up his left front. So you could not definitely say that it was vastapens fault.

Bottas should have brakes sooner and softer to not lock up this would have allowed max to go past safely

[Phil]

An alternative viewpoint expressed within the same logical framework.

A - was the overtake conducted in a fair manner? No, refer to point C.
B - why did he leave the track? To gain an advantage.
C - was an advantage gained by leaving the track? if yes, how much of an advantage was gained? Yes, 3 points and the prestige of a podium.
D - was the move potentially dangerous? By your own logic, yes; it was a marginal overtaking situation that relied on the - at least - partial compliance of another driver.

That would be very selective reasoning though. The breach of the incident is the fact that Max completely left the track. Why did he leave the track? Because he wanted to gain an advantage and conduct the overtake off the track? Or because he was reacting to Kimi moving right and trying to steer away from a potential collision at 250kmh?

The more relevant question in determining if there was a need for stewards to step in, is to ask if it was necessary for Max to go off the track to complete the overtake.

Judging Max's speed, his trajectory (not to mention fresher tires) and how much space was there on the inside when he went for it, I'd say no it wasn't. If Kimi wouldn't have jinxed right, Max could have simply stayed there and would have held the inside line and completed the pass without any doubt over its legitimacy.

Disclaimer: I am not saying that Kimi "intimated" Max on purpose. He simply wanted to move towards the apex and then realized that Max was there. That however was the reason why Max ended up off the track, not because Max needed to in order to complete the pass.

[sosic2121]

Just on the overtake with bottas. Yes he pushed bottas wide however bottas lost control defending and locked up his left front. So you could not definitely say that it was vastapens fault.

Bottas should have brakes sooner and softer to not lock up this would have allowed max to go past safely

Just rubbish!
Max left the track there. What was Bottas going to do?!
Moves like that are killing racing, no matter who done it!

[marmer]

Just on the overtake with bottas. Yes he pushed bottas wide however bottas lost control defending and locked up his left front. So you could not definitely say that it was vastapens fault.

Bottas should have brakes sooner and softer to not lock up this would have allowed max to go past safely

Just rubbish!
Max left the track there. What was Bottas going to do?!
Moves like that are killing racing, no matter who done it!

No he stayed on the track all 4 wheels where not off the circuit. Re watch the overtake