2017 United States Grand Prix - COTA, 20-22 October

[turbof1]

This truly is a kindergarten: My toy is better than yours, no mine is....and in reality no one had one of the toys in hand ever.

Finally some recognition! I know how this is going to end if we don't intervene:
*Mister Turbof1, member A has been mean to me!
-Well member B, I removed member A's post but you have been naughty yourself it looks like!
*Nonsense, mister turbof1! He started it!
-Well member B, you should have used this:


After that, rinse and repeat at the next GP.

Who here has heard of sportmanship? It's not only a creature between athletes, but behold! It's also a thing between fans. Be gentlemen and gentlewomen. How difficult can it be to say:
-Congratulations on your WDC!
*Thanks! Your guy put up a great fight, a shame he had bad luck.
-Oh well, hopefully they can stretch it to the last GP next year!

[Jolle]

With the current state of tech its so simple: small transponders on the corners that you may not cut/run wide, a sensor in the bottom of the car. Going over that transponder line, your power is cut by, for instance 30% for 5 seconds. You won't crash, you won't damage your car, the stewards don't have to get involved and you as the driver take the risk yourself.

i vote in favour of that system

What if the transponder fails? That driver then gets an advantage over everyone else. Cars are different shapes, where would the transponder be? Short cars might get an advantage etc. Terrible idea. There was nothing wrong with the decision other than it's unpopular.

Very simpel. You put the transponder(s) on the centerline (all cars are max with anyway) and you give them 10cm extra space, to avoid discussions. They already have a lap time transponder, there is no discussion that we have to go back to hand clocked times?

And if it fails? There are many systems in F1, many transponders already, not really a ploblem.

It would suit F1, a technical sport, to find a technical solution instead of walls, traps, slippery surfaces or bumps. What we also don’t want is that the steward are giving all the drivers who go over the line 5s. This will cause mayhem for the viewers. “Driver A is in front of driver B but driver A has two 5 s penalties and driver B only one, but driver C already has 10, so he is actually behind them”

All other physical solutions also heighten risk. A wall speaks for itself of course, grass will make you loose control, skid. A skidding car (especially in a fight) is always bad. A car in a trap has to be taken out and is stationary while others are still on speed, etc etc.

An automatic slight reduce in power is no hazard (for cars, for motorbikes it’s another story), especially mid corner, where the throttle is closed anyway.

[vibrating_cake]

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113119

Why doesn't F1 take a note from btcc book. The money is there to implement it, they use a pressure sensor which triggers two cameras, one close up to see the extent of the cut and one wide angle to check to see the circumstances of the cut, if the driver cuts they get a warning. 3x warnings then a penalty is applied. Drivers do and will cut to gain an advantage until the warning, then behave. It's part of the sport at the moment, you actually find yourself listening for particular drivers getting warnings on the commentary.
This worked like magic within 2 or 3 races, it was clear to see the number of cuts dramatically reduced, especially at Silverstone, and brands hatch GP

[Sierra117]

I think a combination of solutions will lead to an overall better solution. Grass strip where appropriate (relatively lower speed corners), gravel trap after grass strip so that a dangerous spin or slide is hampered, for instance. I was also thinking of just making the outside of corners gradually rise in height, perhaps with a little bumpy road.

But once the solutions are chosen, the next issue would be stopping its abuse. Does it become part of strategy? Or would it be immediately penalised?

In any case, that perhaps belongs in its own thread. The race was great nonetheless. Usually I miss out on GPs in the Americas due to the time difference but I'm glad I woke up for it.

[Moose]

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113119

Why doesn't F1 take a note from btcc book. The money is there to implement it, they use a pressure sensor which triggers two cameras, one close up to see the extent of the cut and one wide angle to check to see the circumstances of the cut, if the driver cuts they get a warning. 3x warnings then a penalty is applied. Drivers do and will cut to gain an advantage until the warning, then behave. It's part of the sport at the moment, you actually find yourself listening for particular drivers getting warnings on the commentary.
This worked like magic within 2 or 3 races, it was clear to see the number of cuts dramatically reduced, especially at Silverstone, and brands hatch GP

That sounds great - the key is to take the decision out of the hands of humans. The stewards regularly make political decisions to increase the amount of excitement. We all beg for decisions that are based purely on the rules, and consistently applied to all drivers. Automating it fixes all those problems.

[Sierra117]

That sounds great - the key is to take the decision out of the hands of humans. The stewards regularly make political decisions to increase the amount of excitement. We all beg for decisions that are based purely on the rules, and consistently applied to all drivers. Automating it fixes all those problems.

Not always though. There will always be some exception where we would need human input to contextualise scenarios and take the appropriate decision. Like how LBWs work in cricket with Hawk Eye. Although yeah it's slightly different but overall I hope that made sense

[TwanV]

i vote in favour of that system

What if the transponder fails? That driver then gets an advantage over everyone else. Cars are different shapes, where would the transponder be? Short cars might get an advantage etc. Terrible idea. There was nothing wrong with the decision other than it's unpopular.

Very simpel. You put the transponder(s) on the centerline (all cars are max with anyway) and you give them 10cm extra space, to avoid discussions. They already have a lap time transponder, there is no discussion that we have to go back to hand clocked times?

And if it fails? There are many systems in F1, many transponders already, not really a ploblem.

It would suit F1, a technical sport, to find a technical solution instead of walls, traps, slippery surfaces or bumps. What we also don’t want is that the steward are giving all the drivers who go over the line 5s. This will cause mayhem for the viewers. “Driver A is in front of driver B but driver A has two 5 s penalties and driver B only one, but driver C already has 10, so he is actually behind them”

All other physical solutions also heighten risk. A wall speaks for itself of course, grass will make you loose control, skid. A skidding car (especially in a fight) is always bad. A car in a trap has to be taken out and is stationary while others are still on speed, etc etc.

An automatic slight reduce in power is no hazard (for cars, for motorbikes it’s another story), especially mid corner, where the throttle is closed anyway.

Meh, it's a bit too much Mario-karty for my taste.. what happens if another driver forces you off the track for instance and you lose power for 5 secs.. I'm really not looking forward to racing where every track-limit violation ends in tears, its just part of racing, see Villeneuve & Arnoux for instance. I'd rather not change a thing apart from making the refereeing more transparent by having a camera in the stewards office, and some nice graphics to show what it is that is not allowed and why. For last corner incidents, just postpone investigations to after the celebrations, when adrenaline levels have diminished a bit.

[KeiKo403]

So if we want consistency should Vettel have had a 5s penalty for the running wide at T1 exit when passing Ham? The thing with the rules is they are (for the most part) black and white, so because Max got a penalty then everyone should get one when they exceed track limits, no?

But look at Kmag pushing Hulk wide at Budapest. If track limits are track limits then stewards should have the balls to say once and for all “no you went over the line here’s a penalty” if a football goes over a line it’s a corner, throw in, goal kick or a goal! Same with tennis, in or out. What bothers me most about Sunday’s decision on Max is that Rai seemed to jump right mid corner, yes I know it was a right hander anyway but surely Max had a split second to react and could only go further right resulting in the corner cut.

On the other hand I don’t believe at the start of the weekend that drivers should be told that track limits are being enforced in certain corners, surely that sets a precedent of saying if we don’t say anything it’s a free for all everywhere. So they should just say once, from here on out track limits and forcing a car beyond track limits are being enforced full stop.

I for one am glad that F1 now show the snippets of the driver briefings. Tomorrow’s press conference should be good too.

Final note, and I really do like Vettel, but why did Max get a penalty for what he did here but Vettel got nothing for the Baku temper tantrum? This is the whole problem with the stewards decisions, no consistency and not all pushisments fit the crime.

[KeiKo403]

Just too my bit for the race;
Sainz, Verstappen, Hartley, Kvyat all drove incredibly well, especially given their individual circumstances. Bottas was poor again, Raikkonen seemed quick but had to let Vettel through again.

Haas seem to be going backwards.
FI should start to let Perez & Ocan fight again for the remaining races as I’d suggest they can’t catch red bull and they are well clear of 5th.

Good race in all and glad Liberty gave Americans what they can relate too. Bernie was a dictator and host countries couldn’t put their stamp on races except for 2 minutes for the national anthem.

[ian_s]

An automatic slight reduce in power is no hazard (for cars, for motorbikes it’s another story), especially mid corner, where the throttle is closed anyway.

what about full throttle corners like Raidillon where they nearly always cut the corner? suddenly losing 30% power would be really dangerous, especially if you have someone close behind that doesn't cut the corner and can't react quick enough.
and that's assuming that a sudden 30% power loss doesn't cause lift off over steer, putting them into a spin.

any automatic change to the car that is out of the drivers control is potentially dangerous

[Restomaniac]

An automatic slight reduce in power is no hazard (for cars, for motorbikes it’s another story), especially mid corner, where the throttle is closed anyway.

what about full throttle corners like Raidillon where they nearly always cut the corner? suddenly losing 30% power would be really dangerous, especially if you have someone close behind that doesn't cut the corner and can't react quick enough.
and that's assuming that a sudden 30% power loss doesn't cause lift off over steer, putting them into a spin.

any automatic change to the car that is out of the drivers control is potentially dangerous

Sounds very much like an unexpected De-rate to me. This already happens and we dont get crashes left right and centre. Also if every driver knows what happens if another driver goes off track you know damn well they will be ready if they see another car going off track.

The point I'm making is that drivers aren't stupid if they see or in this case expect a slower car they react.

[Jolle]

An automatic slight reduce in power is no hazard (for cars, for motorbikes it’s another story), especially mid corner, where the throttle is closed anyway.

what about full throttle corners like Raidillon where they nearly always cut the corner? suddenly losing 30% power would be really dangerous, especially if you have someone close behind that doesn't cut the corner and can't react quick enough.
and that's assuming that a sudden 30% power loss doesn't cause lift off over steer, putting them into a spin.

any automatic change to the car that is out of the drivers control is potentially dangerous

Then, because Raidillon isn't a problem or is "flagged" as a corner where you gain an unfair advantage (CW goes trough the corners with the drivers before each GP where and where not track limits are enforced), wouldn't be "sensored up", but Les Combes would (and the busstop of course).

Plus, if you're behind a car that will get its "30% penalty", good change you'll get it too.... else you are next to it

[FW17]

Some dude stole a Merc Front Wing

Then a Red Bull Mechanic rescued it. Hope they got some good pics of it before handing it over

[i70q7m7ghw]

i vote in favour of that system

What if the transponder fails? That driver then gets an advantage over everyone else. Cars are different shapes, where would the transponder be? Short cars might get an advantage etc. Terrible idea. There was nothing wrong with the decision other than it's unpopular.

Very simpel. You put the transponder(s) on the centerline (all cars are max with anyway) and you give them 10cm extra space, to avoid discussions. They already have a lap time transponder, there is no discussion that we have to go back to hand clocked times?

And if it fails? There are many systems in F1, many transponders already, not really a ploblem.

It would suit F1, a technical sport, to find a technical solution instead of walls, traps, slippery surfaces or bumps. What we also don’t want is that the steward are giving all the drivers who go over the line 5s. This will cause mayhem for the viewers. “Driver A is in front of driver B but driver A has two 5 s penalties and driver B only one, but driver C already has 10, so he is actually behind them”

All other physical solutions also heighten risk. A wall speaks for itself of course, grass will make you loose control, skid. A skidding car (especially in a fight) is always bad. A car in a trap has to be taken out and is stationary while others are still on speed, etc etc.

An automatic slight reduce in power is no hazard (for cars, for motorbikes it’s another story), especially mid corner, where the throttle is closed anyway.

Positioning the transponder in the center of the car is obvious, what I meant was if it's further towards the front, or back, or the car is longer that would change how a car "cuts" a corner. The transponders for timing are irrelevant to this discussion as it doesn't matter where in the car they are positioned as long as they don't change position during the lap! How do you determine if they "cut" using a transponder? Would you need something placed in the track? What if even after cutting the corner, and the reduced power for n seconds an advantage is still gained? Is it legal at that point? Also, what if you can cut the corner, get 30% less power but still block the guy behind and maintain the position?

[notsofast]

An automatic slight reduce in power is no hazard

It's no hazard until someone finds out the hard way that it is.

Simpler solution: drive-through penalty.

If you believe you were forced off the road, or if you believe it was a racing incident, you can challenge (within, say, 30 seconds). If you win the challenge, and if the verdict is that you were forced off the road, the other driver gets the drive-through penalty. If you lose the challenge, you get a 10-second stop-and-go penalty without tire change.