Honda Power Unit

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Webber2011
30
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:01 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Webber2011 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:26 pm

techman wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:19 am
have to say this is the best decsion honda has done to fire hasegawa. this guy was too scared to speak up. honda needs someone like cyril in renault who can speak up for honda , not say take blame, when honda engineers are saying mclaren running heavy downforce in brazil for example. it was reported in the media.
Image

Sasha
61
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:43 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Sasha » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:43 pm

To much shame to the brand for the F1 lead to survive.Honda doesn't fire but they do put you out to pasture.

dren
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Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:14 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by dren » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:08 pm

Yes, pretty evident from the Honda official statement. Hasegawa had to know he was a lame duck when the PU wasn't close to being ready in testing.
Honda!

Wazari
567
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:49 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Wazari » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:51 am

Webber2011 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:26 pm
techman wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:19 am
have to say this is the best decsion honda has done to fire hasegawa. this guy was too scared to speak up. honda needs someone like cyril in renault who can speak up for honda , not say take blame, when honda engineers are saying mclaren running heavy downforce in brazil for example. it was reported in the media.
https://i.imgur.com/DQKsGFq.jpg
Although I would agree that Mr. techman does sound like a broken record at times, this particular post does have a lot of merit. As Mr. Sasha mentioned, Honda doesn't fire people (unless you do something really bad) but in essence Hasegawa-san was dismissed from his position. He could be called a scapegoat but in true Japanese fashion, when things don't go as planned someone must be held accountable. Also according to my nephew, as the season progressed more and more of the Sakura personnel grew displeased with Hasegawa-san's refusal to defend Honda. When one carefully examines all the PU failures this past season, more than half can be attributed to McLaren related issues. If a McLaren design or part failed, or a McLaren tech installed something incorrectly, I cannot think of one instance where he pointed the finger as to the exact cause. He spoke in abstracts and spoke as if all PU related failures were Honda's responsibility. This did not sit well with many of the staff at Sakura and caused some resentment. His response would be, "We're partners, placing blame doesn't help matters and we're a team...." Some saw this as weakness that people like EB and Alonso would verbally abuse Honda for the PU's shortcomings. Some of it was definitely Honda's doing but not all. Yes, the 617 fell short in power and efficiency, but reliability was nowhere near all of Honda's doing with regards to the PU. I must admit, I too would get frustrated at Hasegawa-san for taking blame on Honda's behalf when many times I thought it was not justified. Also since he didn't push back, I think it made it easier for McLaren just to lay all the blame on Honda.

Moving forward, I really don't know how the relationship between TR and Honda will play out. I don't think it can be any more toxic than it was between McLaren and Honda. This will be more of a customer-constructor relationship so it should be better. Also Tanabe-san is more suited to deal with the likes of Horner.
If you can make the opposition flinch, you have already won.

PlatinumZealot
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Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:19 am

You are very correct that Honda and by extension Japanese companies do not fire people unless they did something really wrong. Recently I have been reading about the fertility crisis in Japan at the moment, and i learned of the "life employment" policy that was set in place from the 1950's that essentially guarantees life long job security in exchange for only loyalty. It was a sort of way to stimulate the economy.
This pact still stands today and so it just no in Japanes culture to fire good workers when you can give them another chance at some other role in the company.

That said... Even though it is true that Hasegwa did not defend Honda enough, I don't think he was dismissed for poor performance. I think he did what he had to do, which was to get the new layout working and then fall back into the new organization structure. Remember that Hasegawa is not an engine guy so sooner or later he was bound to move to another roll anyway.

The splitting of his role into two is admirable. It shows that Honda is aware of what is happening in the "modern F1 team" and thinking ahead. The best teams have multiple directors for technical operations etc, but this is very innovative for an engine supplier to follow. I don't recall Renault, Mercedes or Ferrari having multiple engine directors. They have multiple subordinate roles but not multiple director roles? If I am correct?
"Raindrops .. drop top!"

Squid
23
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:55 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Squid » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:26 am

Wazari wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:51 am
Webber2011 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:26 pm
techman wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:19 am
have to say this is the best decsion honda has done to fire hasegawa. this guy was too scared to speak up. honda needs someone like cyril in renault who can speak up for honda , not say take blame, when honda engineers are saying mclaren running heavy downforce in brazil for example. it was reported in the media.
https://i.imgur.com/DQKsGFq.jpg
Although I would agree that Mr. techman does sound like a broken record at times, this particular post does have a lot of merit. As Mr. Sasha mentioned, Honda doesn't fire people (unless you do something really bad) but in essence Hasegawa-san was dismissed from his position. He could be called a scapegoat but in true Japanese fashion, when things don't go as planned someone must be held accountable. Also according to my nephew, as the season progressed more and more of the Sakura personnel grew displeased with Hasegawa-san's refusal to defend Honda. When one carefully examines all the PU failures this past season, more than half can be attributed to McLaren related issues. If a McLaren design or part failed, or a McLaren tech installed something incorrectly, I cannot think of one instance where he pointed the finger as to the exact cause. He spoke in abstracts and spoke as if all PU related failures were Honda's responsibility. This did not sit well with many of the staff at Sakura and caused some resentment. His response would be, "We're partners, placing blame doesn't help matters and we're a team...." Some saw this as weakness that people like EB and Alonso would verbally abuse Honda for the PU's shortcomings. Some of it was definitely Honda's doing but not all. Yes, the 617 fell short in power and efficiency, but reliability was nowhere near all of Honda's doing with regards to the PU. I must admit, I too would get frustrated at Hasegawa-san for taking blame on Honda's behalf when many times I thought it was not justified. Also since he didn't push back, I think it made it easier for McLaren just to lay all the blame on Honda.

Moving forward, I really don't know how the relationship between TR and Honda will play out. I don't think it can be any more toxic than it was between McLaren and Honda. This will be more of a customer-constructor relationship so it should be better. Also Tanabe-san is more suited to deal with the likes of Horner.
I can imagine how frustrating it would be to not be defended when people blame you for something you didn't do. From the outside, it would appear that Mr. Hasegawa has been under pressure to keep the relationship with McLaren alive, and might have decided that not fighting them was the best way. Would you think it's possible that McLaren, in turn, felt under pressure from the public and their investors to end the relationship after placing so much blame on Honda, deserved or not?

If I were an investor in McLaren, it would certainly seem odd to me that they would continue partnering with someone who they attributed so much of the failure of the project to. If I didn't know the whole story, which I wouldn't have as McLaren never made it public, I would certainly be alarmed at the very least.

shady
18
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:31 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by shady » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:30 am

Adding Tanabe should be a push in the correct direction: R&D leader for BAR before Brawn F1... check out this article: http://www.racecar-engineering.com/arti ... -revealed/

Such a late addition to the project may not net the results we are all clamoring for, but we will see; and then we will have a hard time parsing out the new influence over the old. but for now, I continue to have hope.. again more confidence in honda than renault but that may just be me.

thanks Wazari again for your candor.

techman
-1
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:25 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by techman » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:14 am

Although I would agree that Mr. techman does sound like a broken record at times, this particular post does have a lot of merit. As Mr. Sasha mentioned, Honda doesn't fire people (unless you do something really bad) but in essence Hasegawa-san was dismissed from his position. He could be called a scapegoat but in true Japanese fashion, when things don't go as planned someone must be held accountable. Also according to my nephew, as the season progressed more and more of the Sakura personnel grew displeased with Hasegawa-san's refusal to defend Honda. When one carefully examines all the PU failures this past season, more than half can be attributed to McLaren related issues. If a McLaren design or part failed, or a McLaren tech installed something incorrectly, I cannot think of one instance where he pointed the finger as to the exact cause. He spoke in abstracts and spoke as if all PU related failures were Honda's responsibility. This did not sit well with many of the staff at Sakura and caused some resentment. His response would be, "We're partners, placing blame doesn't help matters and we're a team...." Some saw this as weakness that people like EB and Alonso would verbally abuse Honda for the PU's shortcomings. Some of it was definitely Honda's doing but not all. Yes, the 617 fell short in power and efficiency, but reliability was nowhere near all of Honda's doing with regards to the PU. I must admit, I too would get frustrated at Hasegawa-san for taking blame on Honda's behalf when many times I thought it was not justified. Also since he didn't push back, I think it made it easier for McLaren just to lay all the blame on Honda.

Moving forward, I really don't know how the relationship between TR and Honda will play out. I don't think it can be any more toxic than it was between McLaren and Honda. This will be more of a customer-constructor relationship so it should be better. Also Tanabe-san is more suited to deal with the likes of Horner.

Honda decsion to move aside hasegawa was the best decision. if you main man cant defend honda who will defend for honda ? the media men will only hear the good side of mclaren because Eric and others are completely defending how good the chassis is and its because its part of their job. but if hasegawa cant defend when the pu issues caused due to a problem of mclaren, what the point of having hasegawa. it will only give a bad name for honda and create displeasure for those people working hard in sakura. the media will only see one side of the story thus come with ridiculous rumours and stats to back mclaren and put down honda.

RedNEO
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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:58 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by RedNEO » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:18 am

Wazari wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:51 am
Webber2011 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:26 pm
techman wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:19 am
have to say this is the best decsion honda has done to fire hasegawa. this guy was too scared to speak up. honda needs someone like cyril in renault who can speak up for honda , not say take blame, when honda engineers are saying mclaren running heavy downforce in brazil for example. it was reported in the media.
https://i.imgur.com/DQKsGFq.jpg
Although I would agree that Mr. techman does sound like a broken record at times, this particular post does have a lot of merit. As Mr. Sasha mentioned, Honda doesn't fire people (unless you do something really bad) but in essence Hasegawa-san was dismissed from his position. He could be called a scapegoat but in true Japanese fashion, when things don't go as planned someone must be held accountable. Also according to my nephew, as the season progressed more and more of the Sakura personnel grew displeased with Hasegawa-san's refusal to defend Honda. When one carefully examines all the PU failures this past season, more than half can be attributed to McLaren related issues. If a McLaren design or part failed, or a McLaren tech installed something incorrectly, I cannot think of one instance where he pointed the finger as to the exact cause. He spoke in abstracts and spoke as if all PU related failures were Honda's responsibility. This did not sit well with many of the staff at Sakura and caused some resentment. His response would be, "We're partners, placing blame doesn't help matters and we're a team...." Some saw this as weakness that people like EB and Alonso would verbally abuse Honda for the PU's shortcomings. Some of it was definitely Honda's doing but not all. Yes, the 617 fell short in power and efficiency, but reliability was nowhere near all of Honda's doing with regards to the PU. I must admit, I too would get frustrated at Hasegawa-san for taking blame on Honda's behalf when many times I thought it was not justified. Also since he didn't push back, I think it made it easier for McLaren just to lay all the blame on Honda.

Moving forward, I really don't know how the relationship between TR and Honda will play out. I don't think it can be any more toxic than it was between McLaren and Honda. This will be more of a customer-constructor relationship so it should be better. Also Tanabe-san is more suited to deal with the likes of Horner.
Hasegawa sounds like the better man. If you wanted him to blame McLaren for Honda’s reliablity issues and he refused then good for him for having some back bone. He was a great guy. :D

etusch
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Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 pm
Location: Turkey

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by etusch » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:29 am

I like Hasegawa san. Of course I wanted to see Honda to act McLaren as they deserved, but he looks very polite.
I hope it will be good for Honda and for Hasegawa

Singabule
11
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:47 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Singabule » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:03 am

etusch wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:29 am
I like Hasegawa san. Of course I wanted to see Honda to act McLaren as they deserved, but he looks very polite.
I hope it will be good for Honda and for Hasegawa
That is what you can expect from mature japanese person, but you dont want to be his subordinate, as he May cant defend you and May blame you. If you are asian and work in japanese company you will know, especially when you are not a japanese.

Chicane
17
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:21 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Chicane » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:22 pm

1) Majority of Honda failures were ''HEAT'' related failures of MGU-H. Honda struggled pretty much entire season barring the last three races with MGU-H bearing failures. So how a Mclaren technician installing those components is beyond my comprehension.

2) Hasegawa is a principled man who spoke the facts and not try to spin it in to Honda vs McLaren.

3) Recent article points out to how without Mclaren's help Honda may not even have made it to the grid in Melbourne 2017. These are not my words but words of Honda's Nakamura.

4) Nakamura has only good things to say about Mclaren as to how up until the second preseason test Mclaren were encouraging and supporting Honda but once Honda failed to keep their end of the bargain where they had promised earlier that they will have a working reliable PU in second preseason test things started going south.

RedNEO
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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:58 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by RedNEO » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:33 pm

Chicane wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:22 pm
1) Majority of Honda failures were ''HEAT'' related failures of MGU-H. Honda struggled pretty much entire season barring the last three races with MGU-H bearing failures. So how a Mclaren technician installing those components is beyond my comprehension.

2) Hasegawa is a principled man who spoke the facts and not try to spin it in to Honda vs McLaren.

3) Recent article points out to how without Mclaren's help Honda may not even have made it to the grid in Melbourne 2017. These are not my words but words of Honda's Nakamura.

4) Nakamura has only good things to say about Mclaren as to how up until the second preseason test Mclaren were encouraging and supporting Honda but once Honda failed to keep their end of the bargain where they had promised earlier that they will have a working reliable PU in second preseason test things started going south.
+1
Great post.

etusch
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Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 pm
Location: Turkey

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by etusch » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:47 pm

Chicane wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:22 pm
1) Majority of Honda failures were ''HEAT'' related failures of MGU-H. Honda struggled pretty much entire season barring the last three races with MGU-H bearing failures. So how a Mclaren technician installing those components is beyond my comprehension.

2) Hasegawa is a principled man who spoke the facts and not try to spin it in to Honda vs McLaren.

3) Recent article points out to how without Mclaren's help Honda may not even have made it to the grid in Melbourne 2017. These are not my words but words of Honda's Nakamura.

4) Nakamura has only good things to say about Mclaren as to how up until the second preseason test Mclaren were encouraging and supporting Honda but once Honda failed to keep their end of the bargain where they had promised earlier that they will have a working reliable PU in second preseason test things started going south.
Nobody said all failures from McLaren. So remember what Hasegawa said after a retirement of Alonso. "There's any problem with PU"
Remember what Wazari san said about where some mgu-h parts coming from.
It seems you don't know importance of packing for cooling

dren
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Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:14 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by dren » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:28 pm

Does it really matter at this point who did what? The partnership was a failure.

On to 2018, an evolved but new PU with what should be a decent power and efficiency boost relative to the competition.

Wazari, can you by any chance share any technical information on how the Honda ERS worked or what sort of combustion the ICE was using?
Honda!