Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
63l8qrrfy6
63l8qrrfy6
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Joined: 17 Feb 2016, 21:36

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Richard Casto wrote:
07 Mar 2018, 18:32

In one of Wazari’s posts, he talks about the bearing in question being a sealed bearing. Maybe there was no expectation that this bearing would ever come into contact with engine oil (contaminated or otherwise). And that the migration of engine oil back through a scavenge path may have introduced oil into an area in should never have been, but making contact with the sealed bearing, breaking down the seal on the bearing, washing away the desired lubricant and ultimately triggering its failure.

Lastly… given the significant expertise here (of which I am not) and the ease in which theories are aggressively shot down, I am hesitant to post on a regular basis. I feel it may result in less people trying to contribute to the discussion (i.e. don't post unless you know what you are talking about). But I am willing to take the risk as I think common sense and a general engineering knowledge might occasionally provide something of interest (I can only hope).

Richard
I don't think that well considered posts such as yours have ever been aggressively shot down so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

So back to bussiness. I think that cavitation has been properly addressed in the previous posts so there's nothing to add to that.

Turbos have traditionally used either hydrodynamic bearings or angular contact bearings.
Hydrodynamic bearings have the advantage of providing very good radial damping at the expense of (arguably) higher friction, higher oil flow requirement, susceptibility to hydrodynamic-induced rotor instability (oil whip) and the inability to acommodate thrust loads.

Angular contact bearings offer next to no damping however they can operate with very little oil supply and take both radial and thrust loads. At high shaft speeds, the balls start climbing out of the inner bearing race under the action of centripetal loads leading to a decrease in bearing radial stiffness (which can lead to the excitation of a rigid rotor mode) and an increase in Herz stresses between the ball and the race. To counteract this effect, the bearings are pre-loaded axially - effectively squeezing the balls between the inner and out races to prevent radial movement at high speeds. In turn this leads to increased friction, increased heat generation and increased oil flow requirement (still significantly lower than that of a hydrodynamic bearing) in order to remove the heat.

A sealed rolling element bearing has no mechanism for removing heat at high shaft speeds and loads. Such a bearing would last very little in a turbo.

The lack of damping in angular contact bearings poses significant problems when the rotor is expected to operate super-critically (above its first natural frequency). This is usually mitigated by squeeze film dampers - effectively a cartridge that holds the bearings and is fixed from rotating but allowed to move radially in an oil fed cavity. The ends of this cavity are normally blocked (sealed) in order to prevent poiseuille flow and provide a higher damping per unit area. I am under the impression that something got lost in translation and Wazari meant sealer dampers rather than sealed bearings. I am waiting for him to clarify.
Of course it is quite easy to see how any problem with the oil supply to the oil cavity would result in a loss of damping and an increase in bearing forces leading to failure.

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Wazari
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Mudflap wrote:
07 Mar 2018, 23:46
I don't think that well considered posts such as yours have ever been aggressively shot down so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

So back to bussiness. I think that cavitation has been properly addressed in the previous posts so there's nothing to add to that.

Turbos have traditionally used either hydrodynamic bearings or angular contact bearings.
Hydrodynamic bearings have the advantage of providing very good radial damping at the expense of (arguably) higher friction, higher oil flow requirement, susceptibility to hydrodynamic-induced rotor instability (oil whip) and the inability to acommodate thrust loads.

Angular contact bearings offer next to no damping however they can operate with very little oil supply and take both radial and thrust loads. At high shaft speeds, the balls start climbing out of the inner bearing race under the action of centripetal loads leading to a decrease in bearing radial stiffness (which can lead to the excitation of a rigid rotor mode) and an increase in Herz stresses between the ball and the race. To counteract this effect, the bearings are pre-loaded axially - effectively squeezing the balls between the inner and out races to prevent radial movement at high speeds. In turn this leads to increased friction, increased heat generation and increased oil flow requirement (still significantly lower than that of a hydrodynamic bearing) in order to remove the heat.

A sealed rolling element bearing has no mechanism for removing heat at high shaft speeds and loads. Such a bearing would last very little in a turbo.

The lack of damping in angular contact bearings poses significant problems when the rotor is expected to operate super-critically (above its first natural frequency). This is usually mitigated by squeeze film dampers - effectively a cartridge that holds the bearings and is fixed from rotating but allowed to move radially in an oil fed cavity. The ends of this cavity are normally blocked (sealed) in order to prevent poiseuille flow and provide a higher damping per unit area. I am under the impression that something got lost in translation and Wazari meant sealer dampers rather than sealed bearings. I am waiting for him to clarify.
Of course it is quite easy to see how any problem with the oil supply to the oil cavity would result in a loss of damping and an increase in bearing forces leading to failure.
You are correct. Sorry for the confusion in terms and I do have a degree in English. :lol:
“If Honda does not race, there is no Honda.”

“Success represents the 1% of your work which results from the 99% that is called failure.”

-- Honda Soichiro

galien
galien
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Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 23:12
Location: France

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Mudflap wrote:
07 Mar 2018, 23:46
Richard Casto wrote:
07 Mar 2018, 18:32

In one of Wazari’s posts, he talks about the bearing in question being a sealed bearing. Maybe there was no expectation that this bearing would ever come into contact with engine oil (contaminated or otherwise). And that the migration of engine oil back through a scavenge path may have introduced oil into an area in should never have been, but making contact with the sealed bearing, breaking down the seal on the bearing, washing away the desired lubricant and ultimately triggering its failure.

Lastly… given the significant expertise here (of which I am not) and the ease in which theories are aggressively shot down, I am hesitant to post on a regular basis. I feel it may result in less people trying to contribute to the discussion (i.e. don't post unless you know what you are talking about). But I am willing to take the risk as I think common sense and a general engineering knowledge might occasionally provide something of interest (I can only hope).

Richard
I don't think that well considered posts such as yours have ever been aggressively shot down so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

So back to bussiness. I think that cavitation has been properly addressed in the previous posts so there's nothing to add to that.

Turbos have traditionally used either hydrodynamic bearings or angular contact bearings.
Hydrodynamic bearings have the advantage of providing very good radial damping at the expense of (arguably) higher friction, higher oil flow requirement, susceptibility to hydrodynamic-induced rotor instability (oil whip) and the inability to acommodate thrust loads.

Angular contact bearings offer next to no damping however they can operate with very little oil supply and take both radial and thrust loads. At high shaft speeds, the balls start climbing out of the inner bearing race under the action of centripetal loads leading to a decrease in bearing radial stiffness (which can lead to the excitation of a rigid rotor mode) and an increase in Herz stresses between the ball and the race. To counteract this effect, the bearings are pre-loaded axially - effectively squeezing the balls between the inner and out races to prevent radial movement at high speeds. In turn this leads to increased friction, increased heat generation and increased oil flow requirement (still significantly lower than that of a hydrodynamic bearing) in order to remove the heat.

A sealed rolling element bearing has no mechanism for removing heat at high shaft speeds and loads. Such a bearing would last very little in a turbo.

The lack of damping in angular contact bearings poses significant problems when the rotor is expected to operate super-critically (above its first natural frequency). This is usually mitigated by squeeze film dampers - effectively a cartridge that holds the bearings and is fixed from rotating but allowed to move radially in an oil fed cavity. The ends of this cavity are normally blocked (sealed) in order to prevent poiseuille flow and provide a higher damping per unit area. I am under the impression that something got lost in translation and Wazari meant sealer dampers rather than sealed bearings. I am waiting for him to clarify.
Of course it is quite easy to see how any problem with the oil supply to the oil cavity would result in a loss of damping and an increase in bearing forces leading to failure.
That’s you’re talking about?

http://www.engineerlive.com/content/dam ... -stability

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Wazari
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Joined: 17 Jun 2015, 15:49

Re: Honda Power Unit

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I have to admit and apologize that much of this confusion is my fault. Although I pride myself on my English skills, I must admit that many times I just post things in a hurry without proof-reading. I also think in Japanese and then translate quickly those thoughts to English words and then type. Even when speaking to my own daughter in English, she will sometimes say, "Do you mean this?" and I will have to rethink and then correct my words with my intent. However, I do post many times in here trying to provoke thought and conversation without saying too much as not to disclose everything.

Going back to the PU, the difference in length I was asked between the Spec 3.XX and 4 was slightly over 4 cm and now that things are becoming more transparent, that was an issue with McLaren specifically PP. There was also a 4 kg difference in weight.
“If Honda does not race, there is no Honda.”

“Success represents the 1% of your work which results from the 99% that is called failure.”

-- Honda Soichiro

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etusch
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Location: Turkey

Re: Honda Power Unit

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weight advantage is now reduced to 6 kg as I understand. What about cog

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Wazari wrote:
08 Mar 2018, 08:10
I have to admit and apologize that much of this confusion is my fault. Although I pride myself on my English skills, I must admit that many times I just post things in a hurry without proof-reading. I also think in Japanese and then translate quickly those thoughts to English words and then type. Even when speaking to my own daughter in English, she will sometimes say, "Do you mean this?" and I will have to rethink and then correct my words with my intent. However, I do post many times in here trying to provoke thought and conversation without saying too much as not to disclose everything.

Going back to the PU, the difference in length I was asked between the Spec 3.XX and 4 was slightly over 4 cm and now that things are becoming more transparent, that was an issue with McLaren specifically PP. There was also a 4 kg difference in weight.
4cm longer? 4kg lighter?

Longer dimension must mean the compressor intake is no longer flattened but a prtrudes for a fully round cross section for straighter airflow like the one on Mercedes?? No doubt that flat intake looking like a crushed elbow was a big compromise for the compressor efficiency.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

toraabe
toraabe
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Joined: 09 Oct 2014, 10:42

Re: Honda Power Unit

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If you listen to the engine when the Tr is exiting, it runs smother than ever ;)

Snorked
Snorked
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Joined: 16 Mar 2015, 21:00

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Yeah, it seems to be true for first test. Yoneya says they tested various things with the test spec engine they brought, but for this week they test reliability for real with different spec, so 1 PU for the 4 day running. [-o<

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dren
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Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 14:14

Re: Honda Power Unit

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
08 Mar 2018, 12:04
Wazari wrote:
08 Mar 2018, 08:10
I have to admit and apologize that much of this confusion is my fault. Although I pride myself on my English skills, I must admit that many times I just post things in a hurry without proof-reading. I also think in Japanese and then translate quickly those thoughts to English words and then type. Even when speaking to my own daughter in English, she will sometimes say, "Do you mean this?" and I will have to rethink and then correct my words with my intent. However, I do post many times in here trying to provoke thought and conversation without saying too much as not to disclose everything.

Going back to the PU, the difference in length I was asked between the Spec 3.XX and 4 was slightly over 4 cm and now that things are becoming more transparent, that was an issue with McLaren specifically PP. There was also a 4 kg difference in weight.
4cm longer? 4kg lighter?

Longer dimension must mean the compressor intake is no longer flattened but a prtrudes for a fully round cross section for straighter airflow like the one on Mercedes?? No doubt that flat intake looking like a crushed elbow was a big compromise for the compressor efficiency.
That might be part of it, but 4cm longer for a better flowing intake bend won't equate to a gain of 4kg, even if the chassis mounts have to be elongated to accommodate? Maybe a larger compressor with your intake idea?
Honda!

PhillipM
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Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: Honda Power Unit

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I would imagine they've abandoned the short crank idea that they were so proud of initially.

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Thunder
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Joined: 06 Feb 2013, 09:50
Location: Germany

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Can we focus on the technical Aspects of the PU and less on bickering Please? Posts have been removed.
turbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
#aerogollum

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Thunder wrote:
08 Mar 2018, 15:30
Can we focus on the technical Aspects of the PU and less on bickering Please? Posts have been removed.
Are you sure you are in the right subject? this is all technical that i can see for the last few pages.
I can see you have added that posts have been removed (as an edit?)

techman
techman
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Joined: 09 Jun 2016, 10:25

Re: Honda Power Unit

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all good

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Thunder
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Location: Germany

Re: Honda Power Unit

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johnny comelately wrote:
08 Mar 2018, 15:33
Thunder wrote:
08 Mar 2018, 15:30
Can we focus on the technical Aspects of the PU and less on bickering Please? Posts have been removed.
Are you sure you are in the right subject? this is all technical that i can see for the last few pages.
I can see you have added that posts have been removed (as an edit?)
Yes, forgot to mention it in the original Post. Mea Culpa.
turbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
#aerogollum

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Marti_EF3
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Joined: 30 May 2017, 00:45
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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[media]https://mobile.twitter.com/AlbertFabreg ... 1170440192[/media]

It seems to be false Honda using an engine per day says Albert Fabrega. Not the 1 test and of course not on the 2 week.