Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Greg Locock
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Greg Locock » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:42 pm

Umm, the equivalent of 20 gallons of fuel in a bus. It's not exactly an empty tank, but you'd be getting nervous...

roon
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by roon » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:55 pm

2.5 Tesla packs. Probably city service. Factor in stop-and-go regime, regen, no idling consumption, low aero/tire drag, low acceleration. I assume their goal would be lasting one driver's shift. If not, swapping buses in-loop mid-shift, although that seems cumbersome.

And batteries are great for low center of gravi- ah, wait they put them on the roof.

Image
Last edited by roon on Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

strad
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by strad » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:45 pm

The bigger one does seem to low in the rear though.
Noticed this. after seeing they use CO2 refrigerant. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/globa ... efrigerant
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Edax
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Edax » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:35 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:08 am
Tim.Wright wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:46 pm
EV's simply don't suit 97-98% of the car buying population.
I disagree: they are suitable for the majority of the car buying population. It's just that they're choosing not to buy them. Big difference.
I think I would fall in that category. An EV would fit my needs perfectly. I rarely use my car anyway, and when I do it is short distance. Long distance I usually end up taking a plane and rent on location.

The reason I don’t have an EV is I think why many are still waiting. They are pretty expensive. The price may not be the largest issue, the maturity of the technology is. If you buy a EV now you can be assured that the next generation will be miles better. That’s where your resale value takes a dive.

So my strategy is let the tech savy’s and the yuppies take the lead and work out the kinks. I’ll join for the next generation. Maybe a bit selfish, but I can not justify to myself splashing down 50-60k just to be an early adopter.

J.A.W.
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by J.A.W. » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:51 am

& just how 'hack-proof' will these AV's - really be?

Like from within the vehicle, as an 'in-person' hijack..
&/or.. from remote control?
Dr Zachary Smith sez..
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Just_a_fan » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:42 am

Edax wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:35 am
Maybe a bit selfish, but I can not justify to myself splashing down 50-60k just to be an early adopter.
You can get an EV for half that figure...
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools."

henry
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by henry » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:52 am

Greg Locock wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:42 pm
Umm, the equivalent of 20 gallons of fuel in a bus. It's not exactly an empty tank, but you'd be getting nervous...
A reasonable estimate. They claim around 160 miles, I don’t know what distance a typical city bus covers in a day, but in congested London, average traffic speed 11 mph, 160 miles would be a decent shift. So a day’s service with lower local emissions, both air borne pollutants and noise, might seem a good thing.

Quick check: in 2013-14 TFL had around 8,500 buses and they covered about 500million Kilometres. That’s 60,000k per bus. If each operates 300 days that’s 200k per day, 125 miles.

Some will be more some will be less, but 160 miles looks less scary does it not?

If Mercedes were to make the solid state battery improvements they claim range would appear to be pretty much a non issue, at least for London.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

henry
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by henry » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:57 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:42 am
Edax wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:35 am
Maybe a bit selfish, but I can not justify to myself splashing down 50-60k just to be an early adopter.
You can get an EV for half that figure...
Again it depends on your usage pattern. Right now I would want around 160 miles range to be comfortable for 80 % of my usage days. Minimum 50 kWh storage. In the U.K. that’s either a Tesla, or the new Leaf.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

J.A.W.
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by J.A.W. » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:01 am

Tesla is kinda.. 'fancy-pants' vs Leaf.. = 'dotard' - so, yeah.. bit of a yawning gulf there.. aint they?
Dr Zachary Smith sez..
"Yes.. spare us your ridiculous remarks, you insensitive idiot!"

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Just_a_fan » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:57 am

henry wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:57 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:42 am
Edax wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:35 am
Maybe a bit selfish, but I can not justify to myself splashing down 50-60k just to be an early adopter.
You can get an EV for half that figure...
Again it depends on your usage pattern. Right now I would want around 160 miles range to be comfortable for 80 % of my usage days. Minimum 50 kWh storage. In the U.K. that’s either a Tesla, or the new Leaf.
He said he did short journeys. I would guess that is well below 160 miles, perhaps even fewer than 100 miles. That brings a number of cheaper alternatives in to play. Of course, they're less trendy/cool than a Tesla.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools."

Edax
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Edax » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:09 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:42 am
Edax wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:35 am
Maybe a bit selfish, but I can not justify to myself splashing down 50-60k just to be an early adopter.
You can get an EV for half that figure...
In the US maybe, but not here.
Nissan Leaf is 40 kEur
Opel Ampera is 46 kEur,
Tesla S75D 87 kEur

Zynerji
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by Zynerji » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:13 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1Z4iPS2_qI

This shouldn't be difficult to completely, and safely automate.

For a bus, I would expect that it would actually take longer to fill the tank with diesel fuel than do a battery swap.

strad
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by strad » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:02 pm

You can get an EV for half that figure...
And less than half the car I would want.
.'
However the range thing is quickly becoming a non starter.
From a Mother Earth test on range:
""A world record has been set for range traveled at highway speeds in an electric car on a single charge.
IT Asset Partners (ITAP) conducted a range test of four vehicles, including three commercial cars-- The Tesla Model S P90D, the Chevy Bolt, the Nissan Leaf. The fourth vehicle in the test is known as the Phoenix.
This BMW was slated for the scrap-heap until ITAP reclaimed it and upgraded the car with 88% recycled materials including the controller and battery. Altogether the vehicle and it's improvements cost ITAP less than $13,000.
For the test each vehicle was required to drive as far as possible along a 362 mile round trip route in California, from Chatsworth to San Luis Obispo.
The Nissan Leaf ran out of juice first after 81 miles. The Tesla faltered after 238.2 miles. The farthest reaching of the commercially available cars was the Chevy Bolt, which traveled 271.5 miles before dying. The big surprise was the Phoenix which traveled an astonishing 340.3 miles before stopping because of a blown fuse. The vehicle still retained 32% battery power so that ITAP estimates it could have traveled 400 miles on a single charge.
The Phoenix was a powerful testament to the potential of sustainability in future car designs.
If a car destined for the junkyard can be upgraded with recycled materials to outperform the newest technology, there no telling what can be accomplished.""
.
Now they don't say what size BMW Was used and many of want something of a certain substantial size but it does show what is possible.
Motorsport without danger is like cooking without salt
Sir Stirling Moss

AJI
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by AJI » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:51 pm

strad wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:02 pm
If a car destined for the junkyard can be upgraded with recycled materials to outperform the newest technology, there no telling what can be accomplished...
Remember the movie gattaca? The police used ancient Rover P6Bs 'converted to electric'. I had a P6B a million years ago and it was truly luxurious. It also only weighed ~1300kg from memory. The only reason I bring it up is apparently the P6B was originally designed to have gas turbine engine but was converted to V8 as the turbine was too.., well, turbiney... An electric conversion of that car would great.
There are a lot of EV conversions of old cars out there and the reported performance is impressive. Battery weight is still a problem, but a lot of the packs are good old reclaimed 18650s, so, super green and also cheap.

roon
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post by roon » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:56 pm

Found some images of that recycled Bimmer. Pretty good range. With some caveats...

Image

Image

Image

Claims to have hypermiled it to 1200km.