2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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WaikeCU
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by WaikeCU » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:23 am

I believe what seperates great drivers from good drivers are drivers who are able to adapt to the car, able to adapt to conditions quickly and still have the confidence and have the same speed.

Fernando and Lewis are those type of drivers.

adrianjordan
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by adrianjordan » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:36 am

Wasn't 2012 the year we had 7 different race winners in as many races or something like that due to the lottery that was the tyres?

I don't think we can draw any conclusions based on the start of that season!!
In 2007 I had the chance to go to a meet-and-greet with an F1 test driver. I decided not to as I didn't think he'd even amount to much...he was the BMW Sauber test driver and his name was Sebastian Vettel...

Phil
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Phil » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:48 am

univex wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:16 am
Redbull are very good at hiding the preferential treatment. They do not do it with instructions etc. (Max is faster than you). However there are aspects to a car's development that are common across both drivers which favour a particular driver or driving style. Whilst set up is as per the driver, aero and engine in particular can (and is) developed around one driver.
Example Red Bull 2010. Mark had won three races in a row, he had an advantage over Vettel in his ability to control the Renault engine. Mark was able to feather the throttle in a way that gave him an advantage.
Redbull along with Renault chose to spend money and resources in developing an engine mapping that replicated what Mark could do as a driver so that it suited Seb. Publicly they claimed a small crack in Seb's chassis, his turnaround was an engine upgrade.
Again, there's a difference between preferential treatment (aka "favoritism") where the team might see its best chance in winning a championship by backing the stronger driver, or out right prioritizing one driver over another because... he's nicer? Younger? The chosen one? The golden boy? More marketable?

To suggest they altered the characteristics of their car to suit one driver more so over the other is absurd. They altered the characteristics of the car, because they saw a clear development path, they were able to maximize an area of the car that would gain them a significant performance boost relative to their competition. Arguably, this helped Seb as he drove masterfully with this car, but to suggest they did it because of him when being faced with the prospect of winning their very first championship with either driver is well... it doesn't make sense. A team wouldn't hurt its own chances to put one driver ahead of another.

Yes, there were cases of favoritism that even I as a Webber fan at the time found disappointing (more in how much support I perceived Webber to get), but there are always two sides to every story and over the years, I have come to appreciate RedBull as one of those few teams who have offered equal opportunity to both drivers. It's not RedBulls fault that Vettel was stronger with the development path of the new RedBull. Even as a Webber fan, one has to accept the reality that some cars suit certain drivers better. I am of the belief that Webber was stronger when the car didn't entirely suit Vettel, but he was also more prone to mistakes. It's just how it is. But in the end, people or fans will just see what they want to believe and will find arguments to support their kind of narrative.

Even with Dan and Max - Max is simply quicker most of the time, especially one-lap pace. I wouldn't say he is necessarily better, just that Max drives with more risk with potentially higher rewards but at the expense that he is also more prone to mistakes. Dan, IMO drives with more margin, so he might miss the occasional tenth against Max. Max is undoubtedly very talented and has a lot of raw speed, but it doesn't mean he will always be faster. Maybe he just deals with the characteristics of the RB14 better. As of next year with new front wings etc, who knows? You can't compare drivers over different cars. Perhaps over the years, an image does emerge which drivers constantly perform well over both difficult to easy/planted cars.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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dxpetrov
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by dxpetrov » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:47 am

Just wanted to understand better, what was one race that DR was faster in the race than Max?! What I could see that he keeps trailing back during the race, only to recover due to Max's DNFs...

Raleigh
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Raleigh » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:51 am

dxpetrov wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:47 am
Just wanted to understand better, what was one race that DR was faster in the race than Max?! What I could see that he keeps trailing back during the race, only to recover due to Max's DNFs...
Baku

AJI
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by AJI » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:56 am

Raleigh wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:51 am
dxpetrov wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:47 am
Just wanted to understand better, what was one race that DR was faster in the race than Max?! What I could see that he keeps trailing back during the race, only to recover due to Max's DNFs...
Baku
Monaco

Ground Effect
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Ground Effect » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:46 pm

Remember the multi 2-1 incident, Webber made a comment about not expecting much to come out of it, he said Seb will get protection. It's pretty clear as day that Christian isn't remotely in charge at Red Bull, it's Marko. Christian came on the radio during that incident saying Seb, this is silly, but he still didn't obey the order. That's the discomfort that was faced by Webber and now Ricciardo. Red Bull always show their favouritism when incidents occur. It beggars belief how they initially blamed Webber for the Istanbul incident in 2010. Then in Baku this year, they blamed both drivers for the crash, even though the defensive tactics by Max were questionable. I chuckled to myself when Marko was sharing the blame in percentages. I appreciated when Ross Brawn said Ricciardo was a mere passenger in the incident due to the wake off Max's car due to his multiple direction changes when Ricciardo was in his slipstream.
So for me, I think that would have played a part in Ricciardo's decision, they will always protect Max and defend him to his own detriment.
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Sieper » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:26 pm

AJI wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:56 am
Raleigh wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:51 am
dxpetrov wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:47 am
Just wanted to understand better, what was one race that DR was faster in the race than Max?! What I could see that he keeps trailing back during the race, only to recover due to Max's DNFs...
Baku
Monaco
In Baku he actually wasn't faster, he just had that gigantic tow every lap. In Monaco he was the frontrunner with a damaged engine he couldn't even be passed (not even an attempt was made) be Vettel. Max was starting death last due to the qualy --- up and came through the pack until told to stop overtaking (Sainz was the last one) which also was neigh on impossible. Kinda hard to say who outraced who there, in fact Ric couldn't even really race as his engine was giving him troubles (and he was just trying to manage thee win which he did brilliantly). He had the best possible result there, but saying he was faster as in running faster around the track, pulling a gap is a bit out of the picture due to the circumstances (monace & engine trouble).

I too haven't seen a race yet this season where Ric struck me as quicker, every time when I do see Ric approach (france f.e.) during (part of) a stint it is for a reason (tire strategy) but once both are in similar circumstances Max is just that bit quicker.

dxpetrov
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by dxpetrov » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:37 pm

Baku, Monaco?! Give me a break! RB have confirmed Max was faster in Baku and only came to DR due to being blocked back by Hamilton. Watch the race again please.
Monaco? Being faster due to the other one starting from the back is really a measure of success. Not to say that DR only ONCE outqualified Max on merit this season.
The wrighting is in the wall. Becoming #2 driver was inevitable and running away was the best possible option to keep himself in limelight for future better deals.

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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by GPR-A » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:04 pm

Ground Effect wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:46 pm
Remember the multi 2-1 incident, Webber made a comment about not expecting much to come out of it, he said Seb will get protection. It's pretty clear as day that Christian isn't remotely in charge at Red Bull, it's Marko. Christian came on the radio during that incident saying Seb, this is silly, but he still didn't obey the order.
Was Webber crucified for what he did to Vettel in Brazil 2012? It was the last race of championship and the team had clearly discussed with Webber to help Vettel whenever the situation arises in the race as Webber was not in contention for the championship anymore. But instead, he chose to squeeze Vettel to the pit wall and overtook him at the start. That pissed the entire management.
Multi 2-1 was payback.

Ground Effect
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Ground Effect » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:09 pm

GPR-A wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:04 pm
Ground Effect wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:46 pm
Remember the multi 2-1 incident, Webber made a comment about not expecting much to come out of it, he said Seb will get protection. It's pretty clear as day that Christian isn't remotely in charge at Red Bull, it's Marko. Christian came on the radio during that incident saying Seb, this is silly, but he still didn't obey the order.
Was Webber crucified for what he did to Vettel in Brazil 2012? It was the last race of championship and the team had clearly discussed with Webber to help Vettel whenever the situation arises in the race as Webber was not in contention for the championship anymore. But instead, he chose to squeeze Vettel to the pit wall and overtook him at the start. That pissed the entire management.
Multi 2-1 was payback.
Maybe in Webber's mind Brazil 2012 was payback for Istanbul 2010, or Silverstone front wing-gate, or Abu Dhabi 2010 Championship decider.
Maybe Ricciardo's end game is getting into a Mercedes or Ferrari for 2021? Maybe he believes Red Bull can't win the championship with Honda in 2 years, he may believe they'll be 3rd again. So why not spend the next 2 years with Renault works team, new challenge, new environment etc.
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Zynerji » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:21 pm

When Weber said during an interview that Sebastian was "like a computer", that to me was the moment that Mark openly admitted that he was not as good as Sebastian.

GPR-A
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by GPR-A » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:28 pm

Ground Effect wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:09 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:04 pm
Ground Effect wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:46 pm
Remember the multi 2-1 incident, Webber made a comment about not expecting much to come out of it, he said Seb will get protection. It's pretty clear as day that Christian isn't remotely in charge at Red Bull, it's Marko. Christian came on the radio during that incident saying Seb, this is silly, but he still didn't obey the order.
Was Webber crucified for what he did to Vettel in Brazil 2012? It was the last race of championship and the team had clearly discussed with Webber to help Vettel whenever the situation arises in the race as Webber was not in contention for the championship anymore. But instead, he chose to squeeze Vettel to the pit wall and overtook him at the start. That pissed the entire management.
Multi 2-1 was payback.
Maybe in Webber's mind Brazil 2012 was payback for Istanbul 2010, or Silverstone front wing-gate, or Abu Dhabi 2010 Championship decider.
By 2012, it had dawned upon Webber that, he was simply too slow to match Vettel and he just wanted to spoil the game in Brazil. 15-3 on pole record in 2011 was simply humiliating, while the only other non RB driver to get a pole was Hamilton and that too, only once. It was just a sour driver, unable to beat his faster team mate.

That is the situation with Ricciardo currently, who is unable to beat Max in qualifying, which determines who the faster driver is. If RB14 was as dominant as RB7 was, then the results would have been more or less similar to 2011 and I say this because Max gets out of the line faster on starts, than Ricciardo. So if he is on pole and gets away, then he would be gone, just like Vettel was in 2011.
Ground Effect wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:09 pm
Maybe Ricciardo's end game is getting into a Mercedes or Ferrari for 2021? Maybe he believes Red Bull can't win the championship with Honda in 2 years, he may believe they'll be 3rd again. So why not spend the next 2 years with Renault works team, new challenge, new environment etc.
In 2021, Ric would be 32 and there would be Max available on the market too. There would be Hamilton and Vettel free for 2021 and if they get locked in their respective teams, it would be once again same situation as it is for 2019. There would be Mercedes junior drivers like Ocon and George Russell on the horizon. There would be Lando Norris and Leclerc alongside. If Hulk manages to beat Ric in qualifying, then it would be game over for Ric.

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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by adrianjordan » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:26 pm

GPR-A wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:28 pm
Ground Effect wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:09 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:04 pm
Was Webber crucified for what he did to Vettel in Brazil 2012? It was the last race of championship and the team had clearly discussed with Webber to help Vettel whenever the situation arises in the race as Webber was not in contention for the championship anymore. But instead, he chose to squeeze Vettel to the pit wall and overtook him at the start. That pissed the entire management.
Multi 2-1 was payback.
Maybe in Webber's mind Brazil 2012 was payback for Istanbul 2010, or Silverstone front wing-gate, or Abu Dhabi 2010 Championship decider.
By 2012, it had dawned upon Webber that, he was simply too slow to match Vettel and he just wanted to spoil the game in Brazil. 15-3 on pole record in 2011 was simply humiliating, while the only other non RB driver to get a pole was Hamilton and that too, only once. It was just a sour driver, unable to beat his faster team mate.

That is the situation with Ricciardo currently, who is unable to beat Max in qualifying, which determines who the faster driver is. If RB14 was as dominant as RB7 was, then the results would have been more or less similar to 2011 and I say this because Max gets out of the line faster on starts, than Ricciardo. So if he is on pole and gets away, then he would be gone, just like Vettel was in 2011.
Ground Effect wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:09 pm
Maybe Ricciardo's end game is getting into a Mercedes or Ferrari for 2021? Maybe he believes Red Bull can't win the championship with Honda in 2 years, he may believe they'll be 3rd again. So why not spend the next 2 years with Renault works team, new challenge, new environment etc.
In 2021, Ric would be 32 and there would be Max available on the market too. There would be Hamilton and Vettel free for 2021 and if they get locked in their respective teams, it would be once again same situation as it is for 2019. There would be Mercedes junior drivers like Ocon and George Russell on the horizon. There would be Lando Norris and Leclerc alongside. If Hulk manages to beat Ric in qualifying, then it would be game over for Ric.
That's a whole lot of ifs in there...
In 2007 I had the chance to go to a meet-and-greet with an F1 test driver. I decided not to as I didn't think he'd even amount to much...he was the BMW Sauber test driver and his name was Sebastian Vettel...

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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by sAx » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:46 pm

Phil wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:55 pm
sAx wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:39 pm
That's completely at odds with clarification issued in Technical Directive TD/005-18
I wasnt implying the clients don’t get the same engines as their suppliers. I was implying that they couldnt get the ‘best engine’ because the engine suppliers can cherry pick their customers, e.g Redbull that wanted either Ferrari or Mercedes engines but couldnt. And then there is the great big pink elefant in the room, that the suppliers have inherent advantages over their clients by full knowledge of the engines, the [required] packaging, limits and that the engines are designed to cater to their own car before any other considerations are made. A client may get the same engine, but they’ll never have the same intimate knowledge over it. That much should be pretty common-sense.
Lets test that hypothesis then shall we?? Horner said similar in his podcast, that Renault don't give Red Bull the best product (engines), ostensibly of the like they fully pay for and expect to receive a first-class service from. He said if he was in Renault's position he would do exactly the same and as such the excuses for poor performance were all Abiteboul's!! Not a trick question but how many races have Renault won this year against customer Red Bull, using a superior specified product to the like that they supposedly save for those lacking intimate knowledge? Quite a huge elephant in that Red Bull room!
Last edited by sAx on Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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