Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ispano6 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:52 am

Mudflap wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:50 pm
Well actually it's not that hard, numerical solutions for torsional vibration in reciprocating engines and drivelines have been around since 1920s and have since evolved to the extent that they can capture any relevant behaviour with near perfect accuracy.

Also tire loads are not really relevant since the torsional stiffness of the tire is very low compared to that of the driveline.
Well, actually it's not that near perfect as you purport it to be. There's nothing like simulating dynamic loads than on track testing. Also no point in bringing up McLarens operations as they were unfit to provide Honda a team environment let alone a decent gearbox in time. Imagine if Honda was still inside the Mcl33. It would have been a proper disaster and McLaren would have hidden behind the engine and Honda would be wrongfully the laughing stock.
So enough of this misinformation about Honda not being able to do this or that, seriously.

GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by GhostF1 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:20 am

McMika98 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:20 am
GhostF1 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:24 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:23 pm
Radial load on wheel bearings doesn't change the torsional behaviour of the driveline though.

Based on what we've seen in the Mclaren documentary the first time the gearbox met the engine was just before the track test which leads me to believe Honda do not have the capability to run engine and gearbox on a dyno. It's even more unlikely that STR can do it.
Honda do have the capability.
Infact last month RedBull said Honda requested gearboxes to test on dyno supposedly for next year.
Indeed, I believe it was Verstappen/Horner claiming they've asked RBR for their gearboxes as well. Can only be good.

gandharva
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gandharva » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:13 am

And TR is using RBR gearbox and lots of other stuff next year. :)

Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Craigy » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:31 am

gandharva wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:13 am
And TR is using RBR gearbox and lots of other stuff next year. :)
They are both supplied in-house by Redbull Technology anyway.
Honda MK and Redbull Technology (also MK) are <10 mins apart by car.

anthonyfa18
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by anthonyfa18 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:24 pm

From F1i.com by Nicolas Carpentiers 11/10/2018 at 11:00

With just a week between the Russian and Japanese Grands Prix, there were logically few technical evolutions implemented at Suzuka. However, the 17th round of the F1 world championship did offer a good opportunity to get a closer look at Honda’s latest-spec power unit.

Image

ON HOME TURF
It has become a tradition in the Land of the Rising Sun: at its home race at Suzuka, Honda put its engine on display, exposing the layout of the RA618H that powers the Toro Rossos of Pierre Gasly and Brendon Hartley.
The Japanese V6 has retained the split architecture of its predecessors: turbine and compressor are dissociated and connected by a shaft on which is mounted the MGU-H. Since 2017, the compressor is no longer housed inside the "V" formed by the two banks of cylinders, but is installed at the front of the block, like the Mercedes V6. This positioning helped increase the size of the compressor and therefore the power, but it forced a redesign of the fuel tank, hollowed out like its counter-part on the Anglo-German engine.

As can be seen in the picture above, the compressor is fed with air by a periscope-shaped carbon duct, which passes through the oil tank, pierced in the middle (see the yellow arrow). On top are the two entries (purple arrows) through which compressed and cooled air (after passing through the intercooler) enters the air box.
One can also see one of the two direct injection pumps (red arrow). Driven by cam shafts, these pumps (one for each cylinder bank) deliver 500bar of pressure to the injector.

There are also three-phase cables (orange, as on all other engines) that transfer the AC power to the control box: it converts electricity to direct current so that the battery can store it. The green cable connects the MGU-H to the control unit, which is connected to the MGU-K by the blue cable.

Image

COMPACT
Seen from behind, the Japanese six-cylinder shows the air box (yellow arrow), the two pipes of the wastegate (blue arrows), the turbine (red arrow) and the clutch, here hidden by a black cover (green arrow).

On the Honda block, the clutch is mounted on the thermal block rather than on the gearbox. The relatively low engine speed of the turbo V6 (limited to 15,000rpm) makes it possible to attach the clutch to the engine, a solution already seen in the past and preferable in view of the significant increase in torque compared to the previous atmospheric V8. This configuration is identical to the one used by Mercedes.

Image

At Suzuka, we also got a good look at the battery of the Japanese V6 which seems very compact, especially compared to the system fitted to the Ferrari SF71H. Top battery is Honda and lower is Ferrari

After the second specification, which appeared in Montreal, Honda introduced in Sochi the third and last evolution of its RA618H block. Although more powerful, this version posed driving problems to both drivers, the torque sometimes being delivered unpredictably. That's why Gasly and Hartley had to go back to the previous specification in qualifying and in the race in Russia.

To remedy this, Honda dyno-tested last week an optimized mapping, which improved the torque delivery and, therefore, mitigated the strong oscillations generated in the gearbox.

However, the problem doesn’t seem completely solved, with Gasly claiming to have encountered "serious oscillations when upshifting [during free practice on Saturday], [forcing him] to adopt a fairly conservative mode of exploitation". To solve it, at least partially, Honda obtained from the FIA an exemption regarding Parc Fermé rules to make an overnight change on Saturday evening. For some reason however, the FIA had a change of heart and instructed Toro Rosso, on the grid, to revert to its previous settings.

Whatever the case, the increase in power is real and has undoubtedly contributed to the good qualifying pace of the STR13 (with Hartley lining up P6 and Gasly P7): “From the performance point of view, we are happy. The post-shift oscillations, maybe some torque delivery at low-RPM, we will assess the data from here and can improve for the next race,” explained Honda technical director Toyoharu Tanabe.

Certainly, the reliability of the powertrain is not yet optimised, and its power is perhaps now only at the level of that of the Renault engine. Nevertheless, since partnering with Toro Rosso, Japanese engineers can work and make progress in a calmer environment, and can draw the lessons from possible mistakes in a better way.

Sieper
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Sieper » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:43 pm

So I thought the yellow anodized plate capped off thing on top of the engine was the MGU-H.

Bandit1216
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Bandit1216 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:44 pm

anthonyfa18 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:24 pm
From F1i.com by Nicolas Carpentiers 11/10/2018 at 11:00



As can be seen in the picture above, the compressor is fed with air by a periscope-shaped carbon duct, which passes through the oil tank, pierced in the middle (see the yellow arrow). On top are the two entries (purple arrows) through which compressed and cooled air (after passing through the intercooler) enters the air box.
I assumed the "black box" is the (water to air) intercooler. Am I wrong? You see 4 pipes coming out of it on the back side bending back into the Vee to the, what I assume, inlet manifold.

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dren » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:15 pm

The MGUH isn't visible in those pictures. It's located under the variable intake box.
Honda!

Bandit1216
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Bandit1216 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:51 pm

Hi

Isn't this "black box" the (water to air) intercooler. There are other pictures shown where the inlet pipe from compressor goes into the now purple connectors directly.

digitalrurouni
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by digitalrurouni » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:21 pm

With respect to the pictures for the Ferrari vs Honda battery...how are they keeping the weight down on the Ferrari if it's a double pack?

etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by etusch » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:24 pm

I wonder why Honda hide clutch. Any one has any idea about it?

etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by etusch » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:30 pm

TR motorsport has a news based on auto motor und sport that says Honda mercedes gap is 50 hp and Honda ahead of Renault.
According to news Horner says "Honda will bring one more big update before the new F1 season. After that we can do the remained job by our chassis"
https://tr.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda ... r/3193441/

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:54 pm

etusch wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:24 pm
I wonder why Honda hide clutch. Any one has any idea about it?
The formula one clutch is nowadays part of the gearbox and no longer fitted to the end of the crankshaft.

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:01 pm

digitalrurouni wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:21 pm
With respect to the pictures for the Ferrari vs Honda battery...how are they keeping the weight down on the Ferrari if it's a double pack?
It has been calculated by people in the know that 12mj battery capacity is possible within the FIA rules as regards weight and size.

pipex
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by pipex » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:38 pm

Looking for information about gearbox control I found this Honda R&D article related to gearbox control from 2009:
http://www.f1-forecast.com/pdf/F1-Files ... P2_26e.pdf
If you look at page 204 it shows the post shift oscillation producing when upshifting. It looks that this problem is not new, as it already appeared during the V8 era and a mitigation system was proposed. So, why this problem is so difficult to be solved now? Maybe the team that worked in the gearbox in the past is not part of Honda anymore and this problem needs to be addressed in the gearbox control design?
"We will have to wait and see".