2018 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

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Phil
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Re: 2018 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Phil » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:22 pm

While I agree that Rosberg was at times quite a bit slower than Hamilton when the latter qualified ahead of him, it is also indisputable that Rosberg outqualified Hamilton on more than a few occasions (more than any other team-mate, if I am not mistaken). So while on average, Hamilton was perhaps further ahead when he did outqualify Rosberg and only narrowly behind when he didn't, it doesn't change the fact that Rosberg did on numerous occasions, outqualify Hamilton.

And yes, I am well aware that Hamilton faced a few issues here and there during qualifying, more than Rosberg did and that may also sway the picture a bit more in Rosbergs favor, but considering Hamilton is considered to be one of the best qualifiers of all time (he certainly holds the record in number of poles), it's all the more impressive how close Rosberg was at times and even ahead. It just puts what Rosberg achieved against Schumacher from 2010 to 2012 into better context. Yes, Schumacher was aging (although I don't buy that reasoning, I think tires and car characteristics played a more significant role vs what Schumacher was used to), but perhaps Rosberg was just faster than some here would care to recognize.
Last edited by Phil on Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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zibby43
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Re: 2018 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by zibby43 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:23 pm


dren
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Re: 2018 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by dren » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:53 pm

Rosberg was quick, and often beat Hamilton to pole on merit.
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TAG
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Re: 2018 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by TAG » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:12 pm

Phil wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:22 pm
While I agree that Rosberg was at times quite a bit slower than Hamilton when the latter qualified ahead of him, it is also indisputable that Rosberg outqualified Hamilton on more than a few occasions (more than any other team-mate, if I am not mistaken). So while on average, Hamilton was perhaps further ahead when he did outqualify Rosberg and only narrowly behind when he didn't, it doesn't change the fact that Rosberg did on numerous occasions, outqualify Hamilton.
All he had to do was copy what Hamilton was doing. It was being shared, and that's what precipitated the rift, you simply can't say the above without acknowledging the core issue.
Last edited by TAG on Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2018 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Just_a_fan » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:30 pm

dren wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:53 pm
Rosberg was quick, and often beat Hamilton to pole on merit.
Which shows how good Hamilton was to take 3-1 in the titles stakes.

Let's not forget that in 2007 Hamilton beat Alonso 6-2 on poles and matched him for wins too.

That Rosberg could live with Hamilton later in his career shows how good Rosberg really was in my opinion.
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Phil
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Re: 2018 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Phil » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:40 pm

TAG wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:12 pm
All he had to do was copy what Hamilton was doing. It was being shared, and that's what precipitated the rift, you simply can't say the above without acknowledging the core issue.
Simply copying would only suggest being as quick. Going faster would suggest being faster. Which, when it happened, didnt prevent Hamilton from using Rosbergs telematry either, no?

Look, i am a Hamilton fan and IMO as big as one can be, but respect where it is due. Rosberg was fast and hard to beat when he was on it, and he was on it quite often. I never seen Hamilton make that many mistakes in QF like against Rosberg and much of that was due to being under pressure. That deserves credit.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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dans79
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Re: 2018 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by dans79 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:56 pm

Phil wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:40 pm
Simply copying would only suggest being as quick. Going faster would suggest being faster. Which, when it happened, didnt prevent Hamilton from using Rosbergs telematry either, no?
Depending on who you believe, etc etc, the story goes as follows. Nico would hold back in practice and analyze Lewis's telemetry for where he would could make gains. Nico would then only show his full hand in qualifying, when it was to late to make set-up changes. This then lead to both drivers holding back in practice trying to obscure their true pace, and that started to hurt the team.

Honestly, I don't think Lewis and Merc would have won the WDC & WCC last year if Nico was still in the team. The rivalry and mind games where just to detrimental to the team.

I personally haven't seen anything like this Between Lewis & Valtteri last year or this year, and that's a good thing.

TAG
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Re: 2018 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by TAG » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:35 pm

Phil wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:40 pm
TAG wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:12 pm
All he had to do was copy what Hamilton was doing. It was being shared, and that's what precipitated the rift, you simply can't say the above without acknowledging the core issue.
Simply copying would only suggest being as quick. Going faster would suggest being faster. Which, when it happened, didnt prevent Hamilton from using Rosbergs telematry either, no?

Look, i am a Hamilton fan and IMO as big as one can be, but respect where it is due. Rosberg was fast and hard to beat when he was on it, and he was on it quite often. I never seen Hamilton make that many mistakes in QF like against Rosberg and much of that was due to being under pressure. That deserves credit.
I'm not arguing that Rosberg wasn't quick. I'm saying that when you factor in the telemetry, Lewis' overwhelming number of mechanical issues where he went into qualifying knowing he'd start from the back and then the needless disruptions that came from the conflict you wind up giving your story a different light than simply Rosberg being quick and being able to beat Hamilton on a great many number of occasions. That just wasn't the case when you factor it all in.

Bottas has beaten Hamilton to pole a few times, does the same argument not hold for him too? No, clearly Bottas isn't anywhere near as quick as Rosberg but he's got a few poles to his name. When he's on it, Hamilton is hard to beat, but Rosberg played the team games a lot better than Hamilton, and that's the skill he used to the greatest effectiveness. No shame in that.

I'd be interested to see a comparison of races where you mechanical issues before qualifying either on Saturday or going into a weekend knowing they'd be carrying a transmission five grid penalty or a PU penalty and I'm willing to say that Hamilton would be 3 to 1 without the reliability issues. I'm too lazy to do the work though.
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Phil
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Re: 2018 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Phil » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:54 pm

Hey, i am in full agreement that Hamilton > Rosberg. Absolutely. I am just sayinv that Rosberg was damn close more often - too often, for my personal liking. I think Rosberg was probably closer to Hamilton than any other team mate he had. That in my book deserves a lot of respect. It is probably also true to say that it took nearly everything from Rosberg to compete with Hamilton across an entire season. So much, that at the end of it, he decided to call it a day and retire. It took that one DNF from Hamiltom too. And my point is, if Rosberg could be that close as often as he was, i am quite certain him beating Schumacher across 3 years wasnt a fluke. Michael will perhaps get the benefit of doubt considering his age, but personally, i think it had more to do with Rosberg being as good as he was and the new different Formula than he was used to.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Phil
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Re: 2018 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Phil » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:46 pm

I love this team!

Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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GPR -A
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Re: 2018 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by GPR -A » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:57 am

Phil wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:22 pm
It just puts what Rosberg achieved against Schumacher from 2010 to 2012 into better context. Yes, Schumacher was aging (although I don't buy that reasoning, I think tires and car characteristics played a more significant role vs what Schumacher was used to), but perhaps Rosberg was just faster than some here would care to recognize.
This situation was no different than what transpired later in 2014 between Vettel and Ricciardo. I look at the psychology of the drivers in these situations.

While one driver had won multiple championships with high quality cars and when landed in a mediocre car, there was no zeal and motivation to go around in circles without any opportunity to compete, which lead to lacklustre performances. Simply because, the driver didn't feel any reason to try harder OR to prove anything. On the other hand, there was this young driver who was out there to prove himself to the world and to impress upon his bosses. He got to drive a car that way far superior than whatever he had driven until that point. There was energy, zeal, motivation and most importantly a long career ahead that required impressing day in and day out. So he went around in a merry.

Every time someone says Ricciardo beat Vettel or Rosberg beat Michael, one has to ask questions if Ric could have competed with Vettel in the W07 and W09 and same about Rosberg from 1996 to 2006. Would they have stood a chance against Vettel and Michael in their pomp with a wild animal like zeal to win races and championship, especially whey had the right machinery under them. I don't think so.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2018 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:41 am

Phil wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:46 pm
I love this team!

https://youtu.be/JGtBBTjunc0
Loved that. Typical couple, typical response to being in the passenger seat when the other person is driving quickly. Susie looked pretty uncomfortable, more so than Toto, but then Toto was playing around a bit more.
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Re: 2018 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by turbof1 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:51 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:41 am
Phil wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:46 pm
I love this team!

https://youtu.be/JGtBBTjunc0
Loved that. Typical couple, typical response to being in the passenger seat when the other person is driving quickly. Susie looked pretty uncomfortable, more so than Toto, but then Toto was playing around a bit more.
Just imagine them saying all of that in the bedroom :wink: .
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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2018 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:20 pm

turbof1 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:51 am

Just imagine them saying all of that in the bedroom :wink: .
Suzi saying "slow down" and Toto just grinning like an idiot? :shock: :lol:

Ummm...
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools."

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Re: 2018 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by turbof1 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:27 pm

Why have I a feeling that's going to replace the dumpster quote...
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