FIRST LOOK: Formula 1’s 2021 car in the wind tunnel

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proteus
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Re: FIRST LOOK: Formula 1’s 2021 car in the wind tunnel

Post by proteus » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:10 pm

So much work, so much brainstorming and so much padding on their backs, in the end we will receive the "unforseen consequences" apology when nothing will be improved. And the G-Man will take his briefcase and leave the area.

Atleast the current model looks slick and that rear diffusor reminds me of 91 Jordan which is a good thing.
If i would get the money to start my own F1 team, i would revive Arrows

TAG
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Re: FIRST LOOK: Formula 1’s 2021 car in the wind tunnel

Post by TAG » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:13 pm

jjn9128 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:11 pm
TAG wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:26 pm
Zarathustra wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:19 pm
On the second picture the car looks like to be higher of the ground- at the rear, then at the last picture.

Have a look at the diffuser and the ‘brake ducts’.. on both pictures.

Are they going to use active suspension or movable aero?
The second picture is of a stationary not loaded car. Watch the video, a lot more fluidity and compression when moving.
No. The 2 images are simply from different points on the aero map. The overhead strut moves to pitch/roll/yaw the car in the working section to test the effect of attitude. In a wind tunnel the car should not move with load, otherwise you have no idea where it is spatially. Obviously nothing infinitely rigid and there is some compliance in the load cell.
Nothing nearly as complicated. Simply look at the second image. The wheels are not spinning. The other images they are. I wouldn't begin to guess at anything more than that because it's not anything I have expertise on.
Countdown to 91: 10 more victories ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Zarathustra
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Re: FIRST LOOK: Formula 1’s 2021 car in the wind tunnel

Post by Zarathustra » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:53 pm

TAG wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:13 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:11 pm
TAG wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:26 pm


The second picture is of a stationary not loaded car. Watch the video, a lot more fluidity and compression when moving.
No. The 2 images are simply from different points on the aero map. The overhead strut moves to pitch/roll/yaw the car in the working section to test the effect of attitude. In a wind tunnel the car should not move with load, otherwise you have no idea where it is spatially. Obviously nothing infinitely rigid and there is some compliance in the load cell.
Nothing nearly as complicated. Simply look at the second image. The wheels are not spinning. The other images they are. I wouldn't begin to guess at anything more than that because it's not anything I have expertise on.
3rd image, look at the Pirelli logo on the tyre- wheels are not spinning.

RZS10
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Re: FIRST LOOK: Formula 1’s 2021 car in the wind tunnel

Post by RZS10 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:04 pm

That part is interesting:

Image

The large teams who can afford to run additional CFD are doing it, of course they share all results but one would assume they're still getting a bit of a head start and despite all the rule changes we might very well just end up with the same pecking order.

izzy
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Re: FIRST LOOK: Formula 1’s 2021 car in the wind tunnel

Post by izzy » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:22 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:58 pm
izzy wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:48 pm
I can't help thinking the FIA are designing the car tho, an awful lot, instead of setting limits and letting the teams design them. I mean it's great they're trying so hard to get good racing with following and passing, but they do seem to be producing 'the car'.
The teams have failed to do so for the last few rule changes. They watered things down and kept the status quo, aerodynamically, for too long. If the cars end up being effectively a standard aero package and do your own PU / suspension setup then that might be the price required to keep "the fans" happy. The teams (looking at you mostly here, Ferrari) can take it or leave it.

Of course, some people are happy with F1 as it is, from a technical point of view, but they aren't the fans that FOM etc seem interested in.

One thing a standard aero package would do is effectively bring in a budget cap. Suddenly the teams don't need big aero departments and expensive CFD / tunnels - unless the FIA is just going to say "you have to use this floor and these wings but you can do your own sidepods". The teams will need to have some input in to the sidepods in order to get their own cooling packages to work properly. But even that would be a big resource reduction.
Yes, it's true they can't leave too much up to the teams either or nothing will change! And tbf since I wrote that I read the racefans item and it's more 'rules' than 'design'.

A standard aero package would be damnation afaic and the people I watch with. There are lots of spec series and they all are completely inferior to F1. For me F1 is extreme, that is the fascination. Extreme and ridiculous, but awesome. Absurdly expensive and cruel to the small teams. But personally I'd just fix the distribution and free up the floor, get rid of the plank and make the top side one surface deep and bring the front wing back and make it a bit shorter.

And now I'm beginning to understand why the teams don't actually mind Ferrari having their veto. I have more faith in Mattia to keep F1 the way i like it - insane :mrgreen:

marmer
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Re: FIRST LOOK: Formula 1’s 2021 car in the wind tunnel

Post by marmer » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:29 pm

The wings on the front wheels are they for downforce or to condition air.
Would be interesting if they are used for downforce if they could adjust them without having to swap out the part or if it's s fixed piece

Edit - also they seem quite far off the wheel would be good to know if teams would be allowed to pick any distance they like from the wheel and what the maximum size of the wing will be if it's not tightly regulated I could see this getting silly

izzy
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Re: FIRST LOOK: Formula 1’s 2021 car in the wind tunnel

Post by izzy » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:39 pm

RZS10 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:04 pm
That part is interesting:

https://i.imgur.com/52kQLwf.png

The large teams who can afford to run additional CFD are doing it, of course they share all results but one would assume they're still getting a bit of a head start and despite all the rule changes we might very well just end up with the same pecking order.
The pecking order probably won't change too much but hopefully the gap between F1 and F1.5 will be smaller, with the redistribution. They have to stop giving so much money to the top teams that it hardly costs them anything to do F1. Generally all the zillion ways they try to equalise the cars with rules just don't work in any case. They have all these limitations on wind tunnel time, cfd teraflops, aero, brakes, same power units as the works teams etc etc etc and it doesn't stop a few teams being consistently a bit faster. Because it's that consistent edge that makes the difference

But that's ok, for me. 4 global manufacturers is as much as we can hope for, realistically, and they will always have an advantage whatever you do. But hopefully they can just share the money out more evenly to help close the gap, so that the minnows have the chance of a podium or a fluke win from time to time.

Sevach
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Re: FIRST LOOK: Formula 1’s 2021 car in the wind tunnel

Post by Sevach » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:41 pm

What would be the benefits of this narrow diffuser? For the following car i mean.

Maritimer
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Re: FIRST LOOK: Formula 1’s 2021 car in the wind tunnel

Post by Maritimer » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:58 pm

marmer wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:29 pm
The wings on the front wheels are they for downforce or to condition air.
Would be interesting if they are used for downforce if they could adjust them without having to swap out the part or if it's s fixed piece

Edit - also they seem quite far off the wheel would be good to know if teams would be allowed to pick any distance they like from the wheel and what the maximum size of the wing will be if it's not tightly regulated I could see this getting silly
They're VGs to pull wheel wake away and smooth the flow that gets under them

jjn9128
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Re: FIRST LOOK: Formula 1’s 2021 car in the wind tunnel

Post by jjn9128 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:03 pm

marmer wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:29 pm
The wings on the front wheels are they for downforce or to condition air.
Would be interesting if they are used for downforce if they could adjust them without having to swap out the part or if it's s fixed piece

Edit - also they seem quite far off the wheel would be good to know if teams would be allowed to pick any distance they like from the wheel and what the maximum size of the wing will be if it's not tightly regulated I could see this getting silly
The flow separates quite early on the top of a rotating tyre so the winglets are there to induce a downwash which will delay separation and reduce the size of the wheel wake. They're the wrong way up for downforce.

I'm not sure if they will be spec or not. I think not, but like the rest of the brake duct where they can fit will be controlled.
#aerogandalf

jjn9128
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Re: FIRST LOOK: Formula 1’s 2021 car in the wind tunnel

Post by jjn9128 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:06 pm

Sevach wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:41 pm
What would be the benefits of this narrow diffuser? For the following car i mean.
It pushes the diffuser wake into a narrower channel and then works with the centreline up-wash from the rear wing vortex pair to drive the wake upwards. People often forget that a diffuser/ground effect creates a turbulent wake too. So if it was wide and expanding outwards the result would probably be similar to what we have now.
#aerogandalf

Holm86
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Re: FIRST LOOK: Formula 1’s 2021 car in the wind tunnel

Post by Holm86 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:08 pm

Is it really necessary with s whole new thread?? We already have a 2021 Aero thread

toraabe
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Re: FIRST LOOK: Formula 1’s 2021 car in the wind tunnel

Post by toraabe » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:40 pm

jjn9128 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:06 pm
Sevach wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:41 pm
What would be the benefits of this narrow diffuser? For the following car i mean.
It pushes the diffuser wake into a narrower channel and then works with the centreline up-wash from the rear wing vortex pair to drive the wake upwards. People often forget that a diffuser/ground effect creates a turbulent wake too. So if it was wide and expanding outwards the result would probably be similar to what we have now.
The diffuser is gone. It is the outlet of the venturi tunnels. Another thing is that the floor is sealed the same way as the xjr14. Designed by Ross Brawn and John Piper. They came up with that idea of sealing the floor with an angled flap between the tyres. The same angle is visible on the 2021 prototype.

roon
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Re: FIRST LOOK: Formula 1’s 2021 car in the wind tunnel

Post by roon » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:53 pm

toraabe wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:40 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:06 pm
Sevach wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:41 pm
What would be the benefits of this narrow diffuser? For the following car i mean.
It pushes the diffuser wake into a narrower channel and then works with the centreline up-wash from the rear wing vortex pair to drive the wake upwards. People often forget that a diffuser/ground effect creates a turbulent wake too. So if it was wide and expanding outwards the result would probably be similar to what we have now.
The diffuser is gone. It is the outlet of the venturi tunnels. Another thing is that the floor is sealed the same way as the xjr14. Designed by Ross Brawn and John Piper. They came up with that idea of sealing the floor with an angled flap between the tyres. The same angle is visible on the 2021 prototype.
Diffuser in the sense of any kind of expanding volume. Re: XJ, I don't see the part you're refering to in photos. Do you have one?

Image

toraabe
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Re: FIRST LOOK: Formula 1’s 2021 car in the wind tunnel

Post by toraabe » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:28 am

http://www.gurneyflap.com/jaguarxjr14.html


Here you see the flap between the front and the rear tyres. Instead of skirts, this is isolating the floor and the venturi tunnels underneath