Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:31 pm

They're almost sure they can match Mercedes in the race. We will see.

The next two tracks will suit RB/Honda because their nature doesn't require a lot of e boost.

COTA in particular only has one long straight, and the rest are short. A lot of medium speed corners and hairpin braking. Honda did quite well in COTA during it's McLaren days, so I think they can fight there.

Verstappen still has a chance to get another win this year.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Sieper
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Sieper » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:38 pm

man I hope so! And thank you for your positivity.

Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Wouter » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:54 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:31 pm
They're almost sure they can match Mercedes in the race. We will see.

Verstappen still has a chance to get another win this year.
Asaki did not say that in the Japanese article. He was only talking about the engine:

" The development goal this season was to catch up with Mercedes and we've managed to reach that target
to catch up with Mercedes later this year, " commented Yasuaki Asaki.

"I don't think there will be one circuit during the rest of this season where we can really do well,"
tells Max Verstappen during a Tag Heuer event in Amsterdam.
"If we can finish close to the stage, or maybe even on stage every weekend from now on,
is that the best we can get out of it right now, I think. "

The Honda engine is good enough for a win, but the RBR15 is not as good as last season.

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:48 pm

Wouter wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:54 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:31 pm
They're almost sure they can match Mercedes in the race. We will see.

Verstappen still has a chance to get another win this year.
Asaki did not say that in the Japanese article. He was only talking about the engine:

" The development goal this season was to catch up with Mercedes and we've managed to reach that target
to catch up with Mercedes later this year, " commented Yasuaki Asaki.

"I don't think there will be one circuit during the rest of this season where we can really do well,"
tells Max Verstappen during a Tag Heuer event in Amsterdam.
"If we can finish close to the stage, or maybe even on stage every weekend from now on,
is that the best we can get out of it right now, I think. "

The Honda engine is good enough for a win, but the RBR15 is not as good as last season.
I think COTA will be better for RBR than they themselves think. Their car rotates really well, maybe doesn't have the best traction out of slow corners, but you don't need that in COTA. You just need to carry good speed in the middle speed corners, and a pointy car to navigate the slow stuff. You do need traction out of the last corner though.

I think the Mercedes has more downforce and drag than the RB15 so the fact they are evenly matched still gives them an edge. This is minimized in the race, I didn't want to admit it but unless there are circumstances favoring us, along with the Verstappen effect helping out. The RB15 is more or less where Albon and Gasly have placed it. Ahead of the midfield comfortably ahead, but not up to the level of the top two.

The Honda engine will keep improving, and with the investment Honda is making, its progress will catch the others. The question is when, as it's been 5 years and they've consistently been a year to half a year behind on development.

Honda needs a monster engine to win, because the RB F1 team is not as large as Ferrari or Mercedes F1 teams.

The engine is only 30% of the deficit and the rest comes from slower development of the chassis. Mercedes and Ferrari have kept making gains, Red Bull hasn't made as many. Perhaps this is because more funds have been spent on next year, or Red Bull has been piling on mods but are rather subtle. So yes such methodical changes could take longer to bear fruit. So any restrictions on development due to resources would drag out this process, and would give the illusion of not progressing relative to the others.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Bill
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Bill » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:14 am

30% where do you pull these number are u for real when Honda and Marko say have an engine that could match Mercedes even at the start of the season Honda had a competitive pu that could win races Redbull chassis was lacking behind by up to 1 second as for Rbr they have a budget that could match Ferrari and Mercedes they don't even build engines the difference is in the numbers of engineers so you got to wonder were the money is spent on perhaps marketing because that's what they are about.

Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Wouter » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:10 am

Bill wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:14 am
30% where do you pull these number are u for real when Honda and Marko say have an engine that could match Mercedes even at the start of the season Honda had a competitive pu that could win races Redbull chassis was lacking behind by up to 1 second as for Rbr they have a budget that could match Ferrari and Mercedes they don't even build engines the difference is in the numbers of engineers so you got to wonder were the money is spent on perhaps marketing because that's what they are about.
Sorry, one sentence? Bit unreadable. Could you explaine yourself better? Thanks.

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ispano6 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:54 am

RB15 simply suffers from shorter wheelbase and high rake that makes it sensitive to wind and inconsistent downforce through corner entry and exit. The power unit is only a part of the equation. If it requires, RB need to swallow their pride and look to an aero concept that produces consistent downforce that seals the floor to the road.

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:36 pm

Bill wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:14 am
30% where do you pull these number are u for real when Honda and Marko say have an engine that could match Mercedes even at the start of the season Honda had a competitive pu that could win races Redbull chassis was lacking behind by up to 1 second as for Rbr they have a budget that could match Ferrari and Mercedes they don't even build engines the difference is in the numbers of engineers so you got to wonder were the money is spent on perhaps marketing because that's what they are about.
I'm saying there is still an engine deficit. Out of the few tenths the are behind, it is mostly the chassis. RBR f1 team budget is less than Ferrari or Mercedes, they are not similar.

For Honda and RBR to compete for the title next year means they need to take a good step over the winter. Hopefully both Ferrari and Mercedes over committed to this year.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Bill » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:09 pm

Mercedes budget in 2018 400 million 150 million went to hpp ,Redbull budget was 310 mill and they don't build pu so they has similar levels of resources. As for the pu Mercedes and Honda in race are a match only Ferrari stands over one lap but over race all four engines manufacturers have converged.Rbr boosted that these car is the most expensive in the history so no excuse

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:45 pm

Bill wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:09 pm
Mercedes budget in 2018 400 million 150 million went to hpp ,Redbull budget was 310 mill and they don't build pu so they has similar levels of resources. As for the pu Mercedes and Honda in race are a match only Ferrari stands over one lap but over race all four engines manufacturers have converged.Rbr boosted that these car is the most expensive in the history so no excuse
Mercedes F1 team budget is separate from HPP budget, the 400 million was for the F1 team alone. This is a similar budget to Ferrari, and that 100 million gap is hard to overcome just by being smarter. Honda is now outspending everyone else on the power unit side, and the hope is that will be enough to make up for the F1 team budget. In theory it could work that way, as I've said, both Honda and Red Bull need to take a good step forward over the winter if they want to challenge for the title. I don't think either team wants to throw endless funds at the program and not see any return on that investment. They are not like Ferrari in the sense that neither need F1 to survive. I applaud their commitment, and next year is very important, especially considering the 2021 revamp is on hold for the time being. If next year there is good competition between 3 teams capable of winning then a complete rethink of the formula would essentially be trying to fix something that isn't broken.

Pride, marketing, prize money, prestige, and also for the good of the sport, it is in RB's and Hondas best interest to have a championship caliber car for next year.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Bill » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:14 am

https://m.wheels24.co.za/FormulaOne/the ... s-20190311

Don't dispute the facts just because you don't like what you hear you not the oracle. The 400 budget is a total of engine and chassis division at brackley which is not solely about f1 and also includes formula e and road cars

Sieper
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Sieper » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:38 am

Mercedes is said to have 2000 fte. Where do you think the dominance comes from?

Of course it is more money spent. Not saying merc staff isn’t good, they certainly are but this kind of dominance isn’t simply comming from doing things better with the same possibilities. I don’t buy that.

But, it has to be said, these kind of side paths are “off topic” here.

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:37 pm

Bill wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:14 am
https://m.wheels24.co.za/FormulaOne/the ... s-20190311

Don't dispute the facts just because you don't like what you hear you not the oracle. The 400 budget is a total of engine and chassis division at brackley which is not solely about f1 and also includes formula e and road cars
That doesn't say clearly if the budgets of the power trains and F1 teams are combined in the budget.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Wouter » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:55 pm

Bill wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:14 am
https://m.wheels24.co.za/FormulaOne/the ... s-20190311

Don't dispute the facts just because you don't like what you hear you not the oracle.
The 400 budget is a total of engine and chassis division at brackley which is not solely about f1 and also includes formula e and road cars
To the mods: I know this is actually off topic and belongs to the RBR team Topic.
If this is not allowed here, could you move it to the RBR Topic?

Also from Racefans. "How much did it cost Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull, Renault to go racing –
and where did they get their money from?"

On the left site of the picture: Excluding engines.

So RBR can at least spend $ 310m without this years Honda engine and Mercedes $ 400m.

Image

Image

Alexf1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Alexf1 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:42 pm

Maybe even better in 2019 for RBR. When Honda was with McLaren they sponsored them with 100 million a year + free engines.