Slipstream effect of 2021 cars

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Juzh
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Re: Slipstream effect of 2021 cars

Post by Juzh » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:53 am

mzso wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:38 am
raymondu999 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:57 am
Why would parallelity be an issue? The cars aero doesnt produce a wake in a parallel line behind them, they produce a wake through the air where they just passed
I wouldn't be so sure about that. The air flows from the front to the back of the car, which is then blown straight behind.
Juzh wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:22 am
Those cars had almost zero drag (compared to these days) and it really made slipsteam very weak. Couple that to a powerfull V10 which nearly always had enough umpf to keep accelerating troughout entire straight and that's the result you get.
In response to the 2021 regs one of the commentators mentioned that he has a magazine with an article from the mid nineties where they discuss what should be done, because it's difficult to follow because of all the turbulence. So apparently it's not a new problem. (besides the australian circuit sucks for racing.)
As for V10s. Coulthard mentioned after driving a hybrid F1 car that he never experienced such torque and acceleration with the cars he raced even though they were of similar peak power.
Current F1 cars top out at much lower speeds in regular race trim compared to V10s, that's partly down to drag and partly down to engines being very underpowered without ERS assist. This effectivelly makes the straights longer. Say if you had 2000 bhp, then slipstream would be completely dead, because every straight would over before you can ever get close to a car in front.

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Re: Slipstream effect of 2021 cars

Post by TAG » Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:13 pm

Juzh wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:27 am
TAG wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:34 pm
The new regulations are flirting with a great balance for what we want to see, closer racing. There's a missing piece however and it's not being addressed. Braking; if you appreciatively decrease the current braking capacity, you significantly increase the burden of getting braking right, it's all on the driver.

This IMO is the piece that would create the winning formula for 2021.
I don't understand this premise. So what if it's all on the driver? It's the same for everyone. If anything, harder braking is a good change, though I don't think it will change too much. Remember 2014 when braking distances were miles long with cars having truly pathetic levels of downforce? I think we've yet to see better racing since then, and bold moves on the brakes were much more common. IMO 2014 regs took it way too far, cars were basically 200 million dollar F2 cars on steroids, but at least racing was good. Still not as good as in 2011/2012 and even 2013.
To better clarify, since what these regulations will do is simply have cars be able to follow more closely behind one another with less tire deg and less cooling issues. If you then make braking distances longer by making the brakes smaller, or not made of carbon let's say, you make braking more treacherous and more of a chore. Better driver will benefit and like you said in 2014 increase opportunistic overtaking due of mistakes.

BTW 2010 was a good racing year, probably the best racing we've had this millennium, and you leave that out?
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Re: Slipstream effect of 2021 cars

Post by raymondu999 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:38 pm

TAG wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:13 pm
BTW 2010 was a good racing year, probably the best racing we've had this millennium, and you leave that out?
You and I remember 2010 very differently.

2010 was a competitive year on the macro view - it had a mega title fight. But on the micro view - race by race - it had some of the lowest overtaking figures for a long time.
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Re: Slipstream effect of 2021 cars

Post by TAG » Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:55 pm

raymondu999 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:38 pm
TAG wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:13 pm
BTW 2010 was a good racing year, probably the best racing we've had this millennium, and you leave that out?
You and I remember 2010 very differently.

2010 was a competitive year on the macro view - it had a mega title fight. But on the micro view - race by race - it had some of the lowest overtaking figures for a long time.
It would seem like we do.

Overtaking is overrated. People like battles, not overtaking. People like over taking attempts, people like continuous pressure, people like masterful defense. The overtake is an incidental.
Countdown to 91: 8 more victories ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Just_a_fan
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Re: Slipstream effect of 2021 cars

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:09 pm

TAG wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:55 pm
Overtaking is overrated. People like battles, not overtaking. People like over taking attempts, people like continuous pressure, people like masterful defense. The overtake is an incidental.
I agree with the first bit but not, sadly, the rest. It seems that lots of people want overtaking - including members on this forum. It seems that overtaking is king for many and the more the merrier for them.

Me? I'd much rather watch two drivers over several laps trying to overtake / defend. It's the "ooh, will he? NO! So close! Ah, this time he might...oh, great defending...brilliant move that!" stuff that's exciting, not "oh, here he comes...and he's got by at the first time of trying" guff.

It seems the "fans" that the FIA talk to all want lots of the latter which is why the FIA is doing so much to set up the new rules.A race with 200 hundred overtakes will be just as dull as one with 2 overtakes. The key is having a few good battles and making sure that the people watching get to see those battles. All too often, we have the director cutting away to someone in the pit lane, or the leader circulating in free air with no one near him, whilst a good multi-corner ding dong is going on mid field.
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Andres125sx
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Re: Slipstream effect of 2021 cars

Post by Andres125sx » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:34 pm

hollus wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:52 am
No, no, Andres, I mean space.
Is the leadind car gets to floor it in a particular line in the ground, at, say 140kmh, the car behind will reach the same line at, say, 135km/h. Only some meters after that line can the following car floor it, at say 145 km/h (reduced grip). By that point in the tarmac, the leading car might well have been doing 155, and by that point in time it might be doing 160 km/h.
The following car is slower, just after the corner, both in time of day and in lap position comparisons.
If it was only in time we’d be talking of the accordion effect that one can see in MotoGP where the time gaps are constant but the distance gaps grow in every straight and shrink in every corner.
Ok I get what you mean, you were comparing two equal cars so the one behind will always be slower. Then agree with the explanation, but I prefer a more real comparison with a faster car behind as if they´re equal the car behind will never be able to even try

I was assuming a faster car wich can take the corner at same speed despite dirty air.

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Re: Slipstream effect of 2021 cars

Post by Andres125sx » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:44 pm

TAG wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:34 pm
The new regulations are flirting with a great balance for what we want to see, closer racing. There's a missing piece however and it's not being addressed. Braking; if you appreciatively decrease the current braking capacity, you significantly increase the burden of getting braking right, it's all on the driver.

This IMO is the piece that would create the winning formula for 2021.

There are only two ways to do this: a) reduce DF, so the cars will be slower. b) reduce braking power artificially.

With option a) F1 will not be F1 IMHO as DF is something pretty common nowadays so if you reduce it in F1 there will be lesser categories fighing F1.

With option b) braking pedal could be replaced with a button, as they will not have enough braking power to lock and they will always floor the brake pedal, so braking will be much easier, the opposite you were after


I proposed the same (increasing braking distance and/or banning carbon brakes) some years ago and someone in this forum showed my I was wrong. He told me HRT used steel brakes for some time and they were not slower than the rest... well, at least not slower than usually :mrgreen:

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Re: Slipstream effect of 2021 cars

Post by Andres125sx » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:09 pm

TAG wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:55 pm
raymondu999 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:38 pm
TAG wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:13 pm
BTW 2010 was a good racing year, probably the best racing we've had this millennium, and you leave that out?
You and I remember 2010 very differently.

2010 was a competitive year on the macro view - it had a mega title fight. But on the micro view - race by race - it had some of the lowest overtaking figures for a long time.
It would seem like we do.

Overtaking is overrated. People like battles, not overtaking. People like over taking attempts, people like continuous pressure, people like masterful defense. The overtake is an incidental.
People like zoophilia :wtf: #-o :mrgreen: :sick:

What I mean is people like many different things, but that´s hardly an argument.

Also, what people? Did you do a survey? What percentage do prefer overtaking attempts better than real overtakes? Overtaking attempts are great when there´s some real chance for the overtake to be completed. When you know it´s not possible, overtaking attempts are frustrating.

Do you remember Imola 05 (or it was 06) when a young Alonso kept Schumacher behind for 15 laps despite the german was much much faster? I´m spanish, so you can imagine my heart rate for those 15 looooong laps :mrgreen: . But at the end of the race when he was asked about the pressure of keeping a 7 times world champion behind for so long he said: "pressure, no way, I was quite calm, I knew if I didn´t make a mistake he´ll not pass"

It was an inflexion point in my view of F1, extremelly frustrating as it showed there was no real competition even if one car is 2 second a lap faster. Since then I don´t see overtaking attempts the same way, I want real overtaking. Then if in some fight someone can´t pass but he tried I surely will enjoy it, but when you know overtaking is almost impossible, overtaking attempts stop provinding any excitement

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Re: Slipstream effect of 2021 cars

Post by mzso » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:46 pm

TAG wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:55 pm
Overtaking is overrated. People like battles, not overtaking. People like over taking attempts, people like continuous pressure, people like masterful defense. The overtake is an incidental.
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:09 pm
Me? I'd much rather watch two drivers over several laps trying to overtake / defend. It's the "ooh, will he? NO! So close! Ah, this time he might...oh, great defending...brilliant move that!" stuff that's exciting, not "oh, here he comes...and he's got by at the first time of trying" guff.
I didn't particularly enjoy centipeding in a different order race-by-race in 2010. Battles without any results are meaningless. OOh, he followed the other driver within 3 seconds for several laps, how amazing...

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Re: Slipstream effect of 2021 cars

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:59 pm

mzso wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:46 pm
Battles without any results are meaningless. OOh, he followed the other driver within 3 seconds for several laps, how amazing...
No one is suggesting the battle should be without result. OTOH, it shouldn't just be "cruise up behind guy ahead, pull out, overtake". Overtaking and defending are both key skills of racing drivers. The cars and circuits should be such that overtaking is possible but not a certainty, defending is possible but not easy. Thus the skills of both drivers are tested and displayed. The drivers should be able to get close and then attack, likewise they should be able to defend.

I fear that if the 2021 rules work as intended, overtaking will be too easy, especially as the rules favour the overtaking driver.
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Re: Slipstream effect of 2021 cars

Post by mzso » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:32 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:59 pm
I fear that if the 2021 rules work as intended, overtaking will be too easy, especially as the rules favour the overtaking driver.
I highly doubt that... (excluding of course big performance difference, and unwise DRS usage) The following drivers will just be less handicapped. Was overtaking ever too easy? Even with pre-downforce cars it was never a given, and they weren't effected negatively by the preceding car at all, they only had the slipstream. The new formula of course won't be even close to this.

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Re: Slipstream effect of 2021 cars

Post by strad » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:33 am

Also, what people? Did you do a survey?
I'll put my vote with just a fan.. Maybe you should start a poll might prove interesting.
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GPR -A
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Re: Slipstream effect of 2021 cars

Post by GPR -A » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:18 am

I don't think the overtaking is going to be that easy at the front of the grid, for some basic facts.

Cars would have drastically reduced drag due to simplification of aero. This means, the cars would have very high top speeds on the straights. Slippery cars in straight line, means the overtaking might still be difficult.

Due to reduced drag, cars would not have to carry the same fuel as they are carrying now. Meaning, lighter car (although balances due to increase in minimum weight for 2021). I don't think cars would need 105-110 kilo fuel anymore and might go back to around 90 to 95 kilos (those PUs who are more economical would benefit more).

mzso
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Re: Slipstream effect of 2021 cars

Post by mzso » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:07 pm

GPR -A wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:18 am
Due to reduced drag, cars would not have to carry the same fuel as they are carrying now. Meaning, lighter car (although balances due to increase in minimum weight for 2021). I don't think cars would need 105-110 kilo fuel anymore and might go back to around 90 to 95 kilos (those PUs who are more economical would benefit more).
I wonder why don't they just fill the tanks to maximum and just have constant extra power in the start of the race, where the extra weight matters least. (110 compared to a 100 matters a lot less tan 15 to 5)

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Re: Slipstream effect of 2021 cars

Post by piast9 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:11 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:23 am
I happened upon a youtube video of the 2002 Australian GP t'other day. Interesting because Schumacher was tucked up behind Trulli for a few laps. Even though MS was within 0.2s (I saw 0.12s at one point) behind JT, he couldn't pass him. Coming on to the straight, MS was no.more than three car lengths behind JT but couldn't get a tow sufficient to allow the overtake. MS only got through when JT spun himself in to the wall.
I think the RPM limiter was the huge issue back then. The tow was useless if you couldn't gain the speed past certain artificial limit which was more or less the same as the car you want to overtake. Current regulations with the fuel flow limit rather than the engine RPM are much better.