2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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Lotus102
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Lotus102 » Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:15 pm

izzy wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:15 pm
Capharol wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:38 pm
last years F2 contenders field was ....... bad and Latifi wasn't that good.

so i guess its all about money in this case
Yes Lance2 really. Hopefully the car and organisation will be better
Amen to the second bit. I don't see much similarity between Stroll and Latifi though, apart from them being Canadian and having wealthy parents. Stroll snr controlled every aspect of Lance's career and hung around the paddock intimidating team people, then bought a team, while Latifi snr is very much content to remain in the background. I'm not sure he's ever been seen at McLaren or Williams, has he? In any case, Nicholas is his own man. Lance wanted a shortcut into F1, Nicholas has been prepared to serve his apprenticeship (and frankly I think doing a few seasons in F2 is excellent prep for F1 - Lance should have done at least one season there imo). Finally he seems a much nicer and more positive guy and prepared to work hard with the engineers.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think he's future WDC material, but I think he'll generally be around 3 tenths off Russell rather than Kubica's half a second/one second, and will be much better for team cohesion and morale. Williams has one superstar already, they just need a solid wingman who can push Russell a bit but generally be supportive.

And the cash will help a lot.

izzy
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by izzy » Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:54 pm

Lotus102 wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:15 pm
izzy wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:15 pm
Yes Lance2 really. Hopefully the car and organisation will be better
Amen to the second bit. I don't see much similarity between Stroll and Latifi though, apart from them being Canadian and having wealthy parents. Stroll snr controlled every aspect of Lance's career and hung around the paddock intimidating team people, then bought a team, while Latifi snr is very much content to remain in the background. I'm not sure he's ever been seen at McLaren or Williams, has he? In any case, Nicholas is his own man. Lance wanted a shortcut into F1, Nicholas has been prepared to serve his apprenticeship (and frankly I think doing a few seasons in F2 is excellent prep for F1 - Lance should have done at least one season there imo). Finally he seems a much nicer and more positive guy and prepared to work hard with the engineers.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think he's future WDC material, but I think he'll generally be around 3 tenths off Russell rather than Kubica's half a second/one second, and will be much better for team cohesion and morale. Williams has one superstar already, they just need a solid wingman who can push Russell a bit but generally be supportive.

And the cash will help a lot.
Oh I don't mean to bash him, just that pace wise he looks similar to like Jolyon Palmer and Lance, who both won spec feeder series after 3-4 years. in those series experience makes a huge difference doesn't it, almost so if you don't win it in Year1 it doesn't count. Lance's history is actually quite similar to Mick Schumacher's thru F3. And Nicholas seems a nice guy as you say. Tho I thought Lawrence is a petrolhead and okay too, from what little i know.

But if the Latifis keep Williams going that's enough for me anyway. If resurrection can happen for McLaren then who knows

Raleigh
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Raleigh » Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:48 am

Lance got parachuted into F1 as a teenager with just 2 seasons in F3 (2nd time F3 title), he was wildly inexperienced and made a lot of mistakes but ultimately did prove a reasonable talent.

Latifi on the other hand is 24 and has spent what some would describe as far too long working his way through the junior formula, 4 complete seasons in GP2/F2 alone with thoroughly mediocre results despite always driving for one of the top teams. Not a single lower title win, best championship result of 2nd this year in what can only be described as a weak field and with 4.5 seasons under his belt. Even Joylon Palmer won the title with that kind of experience.

All I can say in his favour is he's unlikely to break the car too often, the money will be useful and being off the pace compared to Russell doesn't start mattering until Williams can built a more competitive car.

Jackles-UK
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Jackles-UK » Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:12 am

Williams have always been eager to put young/inexperienced drivers in their seats (even when the team was fighting for titles) so the Latifi signing doesn’t surprise anyone.

I still think an experienced head alongside Russell would have been the best option from a sporting perspective; their best seasons in the past decade or so were the ones with the likes of Massa/Barrichello alongside a youngster. Hulkenberg would have been a perfect signing but I appreciate they would’ve had to splash a lot of money they don’t really have to tempt him to sign for them in their current malaise.

The money that they are (probably) going to get from Latifi and that they save on their Mercedes contract for running Russell obviously makes better business sense.

Lotus102
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Lotus102 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:39 pm

I don't know, I think drivers who take longer to develop aren't necessarily worse in the end. Button came into F1 too early and spent quite a few seasons being not that great before he found his feet. F3000 would have done him good IMO. Latifi's junior career is no worse than someone like, say, Webber, and I'd rather a driver like that than a Jarno Trulli or a Stoffel Vandoorne. Arguably Latifi lost a season with the introduction of the new F2 car in 2018, when he had a lot to unlearn. He had nine podiums including a win in just his second full GP2/F2 season, after all - Palmer scored only three podiums in his second GP2 series so Latifi showed a bit more promise than that.

All that said, I agree that a more experienced driver would have been preferable. Trouble is, there wasn't anyone. Hulkenburg didn't want the seat, and seems pretty comfortable with leaving F1 anyway. Other than that, you're looking at the likes of Brendon Hartley or Marcus Ericcson. F2 graduates seem to take to F1 pretty quickly these days anyway.

When George Russell was interviewed before qualifying the other day, he expressed absolute certainty that next year's car will be a lot better. I found that reassuring - the team clearly feels it's made an improvement, so it's down to whether the correlation and analysis is as good as Williams thinks/hopes it is.

netoperek
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by netoperek » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:25 pm

Polish commentators said something interesting today - Robert estimated that out of all of his suggestions regarding car development, Williams only used in any form only maybe 10%. Thats pretty weird and I bet that even BMW Sauber took his feedback way more serious, even though he was a freshmen back then. BMW, Renault and Mercedes all praised the quality of his feedback and advice in the past, why Williams, being much further behind ignored that?

Lotus102
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Lotus102 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:48 pm

netoperek wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:25 pm
Polish commentators said something interesting today - Robert estimated that out of all of his suggestions regarding car development, Williams only used in any form only maybe 10%. Thats pretty weird and I bet that even BMW Sauber took his feedback way more serious, even though he was a freshmen back then. BMW, Renault and Mercedes all praised the quality of his feedback and advice in the past, why Williams, being much further behind ignored that?
This is standard fare for Kubica. He said it after his test in Abu Dhabi in 2017, and again in 2018 after a bit of FP1 running - always to Polish media, not to English language. I think it’s just a default when he is frustrated. His sim work does seem reasonably well regarded, but considering how much he has struggled to get his head around the Pirelli tyres, I honestly can’t see that there can be all that much value in his irl feedback. There have been occasions when his engineer has asked him for his thoughts on something during a race and the response has been ‘I don’t know, you tell me’. Russell has objectively got more from the car and been able to find set-ups that work better so it’s natural they would follow his guidance more. Sad to say, but Kubica just doesn’t seem to have got to grips with hybrid era F1.

bauc
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by bauc » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:56 am

What a sad season for Williams, hopefully they can bounce back next year
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Lotus102
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Lotus102 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:09 pm

bauc wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:56 am
What a sad season for Williams, hopefully they can bounce back next year
I have reasonable hopes that they will - but then I've thought that for the last two seasons. Unfortunately I bought into the Paddy Lowe hype and thought that his first car would represent a big step forward. Then I trusted him to fix the mess that the 2018 car created. Now I'm just pleased he's gone. The signs do seem positive for a step forward, but who can truly say.

Whatever happens, I can't imagine Claire W will allow the wool to be pulled over her eyes again.

Big Tea
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Big Tea » Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:23 pm

bauc wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:56 am
What a sad season for Williams, hopefully they can bounce back next year
The important thing is that they survived the season. Once gone there is no way back.
They may take stick for having pay drivers instead of splashing out for a name, but the important thing in F1 is to survive.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

Lynx
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Lynx » Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:57 pm

bauc wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:56 am
What a sad season for Williams, hopefully they can bounce back next year
Yes, a very sad season, but I also hope next year they can at least catch the midfield (I bought some Rokit Williams merchandise last week when there was -70% sales, so I hope I won't be embarrassed to wear it :D ).

I currently see 2 positives for next year. Firstly George put 13th fastest lap in Abu Dhabi. Yes, he had fresher tyres than most others at the end of the race, but still, that shows there has been some progress during 2019. And secondly Paddy Lowe is long gone now and (new) technical team with Patrick Head as some sort of supervisor can now hopefully do their work more efficiently with next year's car. I hope we'll not see some copy of Ferrari and/or Mercedes ideas like last 2 years which did not lead anywhere.

bauc
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by bauc » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:19 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:23 pm
bauc wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:56 am
What a sad season for Williams, hopefully they can bounce back next year
The important thing is that they survived the season. Once gone there is no way back.
They may take stick for having pay drivers instead of splashing out for a name, but the important thing in F1 is to survive.
I agree
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mclaren111
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by mclaren111 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:00 pm

Image



Clearly looking for answers... :lol: :lol:

turbof1
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by turbof1 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:06 pm

Well, it will atleast solve their Wi-Fi problems.

I'll show myself out...
#AeroFrodo

bill shoe
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by bill shoe » Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:07 pm

Basic metrics for next season-
They have a car running on first day of winter testing.
They are quicker in qualy (in the first 5 races) than 2019.
They sometimes beat other cars in qualy on basis of their own speed and merit.
They score points (plural).

Challenges-
As new commercial deals are negotiated for 2021 and beyond, will Williams retain their current Legacy payment?
Is Claire the right person to lead this team?
What is long-term solution for technical leadership?
Can a self-funding team (the only remaining self-funding team?) compete against a midfield full of billionaire hobby-teams and other teams/situations where the teams spend more money than they earn from F1?

Thin set of 2019 positives for Williams-
They put a safe, reliable car on the grid for every race.
They never missed the 107% qualy cutoff.
Budget is thin, but apparently they are progressing on next year's car.
Mercedes sees enough merit in the team to continue paying for Russell's ride next year.
A point! They scored a point!
They survived 2019, they'll be back in 2020. Season 43(!) or something like that.
Frank is still there. Not bad for a guy that was written off in 1986.
Last edited by bill shoe on Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.