Real reasons of world class automobile manufacturers struggle for enter or return to F1

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Andres125sx
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Re: Real reasons of world class automobile manufacturers struggle for enter or return to F1

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El Scorchio wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:13 pm
Holm86 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:20 pm
The current engine regulations are a big factor, these engines are just too advanced, and even if a new manufacturer could build a great engine from scratch, all the other manufactures have 6 years of experience in how to utilise the ERS systems most efficiently that they would need to catch up with.
True. Although it's Ok for Honda now, does anyone want to go through the huge public disrespect they had when they didn´t reach any of their targets with a PU wich perfomance was just too poor but it also was unreliable and breaking apart constantly what is the nightmare of any manufacturer?
I´ve corrected that for you Sir :wink:

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Holm86
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Re: Real reasons of world class automobile manufacturers struggle for enter or return to F1

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izzy wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:40 am
Holm86 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:20 pm
The current engine regulations are a big factor, these engines are just too advanced, and even if a new manufacturer could build a great engine from scratch, all the other manufactures have 6 years of experience in how to utilise the ERS systems most efficiently that they would need to catch up with.
But is there an engine of any kind that someone could come in and be competitive with? i mean in principle it's not much harder than a high revving V8 is it? If it's fuel flow limited which is pretty fundamental to the whole idea. After that there's just two electromotors and a battery and a turbo and making them work in a fairly obvious way like deploying early for the area under the curve down the straight, charging when you can, and so on. Lots of limits apart from H to K direct.

The hard thing is doing it perfectly and that's the same whatever the engine is. Especially combustion! Fuel, lubricants, cooling, it's always the same. When they were talking about dropping the H Andy Cowell said HPP'd make 100 prototypes of any new engine! i don't think Honda were representative 2015-18, that was more about how they ran the project
I seriously doubt harvest and deployment is as simple as you mention.
There's a reason none of the top teams were interested in new engine regulations for 2021, not just because of cost, but because they have the knowledge and experience on the hybrid technology they don't just want to throw away.
They know that no manufacturer could join F1 today, and be competetive with a new engine in the first years.
If they made new engine regulations, it would be a level playingfield, and those who have the greatest engines now, don't want that.

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izzy
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Re: Real reasons of world class automobile manufacturers struggle for enter or return to F1

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Holm86 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:22 am
I seriously doubt harvest and deployment is as simple as you mention.
There's a reason none of the top teams were interested in new engine regulations for 2021, not just because of cost, but because they have the knowledge and experience on the hybrid technology they don't just want to throw away.
They know that no manufacturer could join F1 today, and be competetive with a new engine in the first years.
If they made new engine regulations, it would be a level playingfield, and those who have the greatest engines now, don't want that.
Oh yes a new engine for being new, but they offered that and in the end VW and Porsche still didn't dare. And what kind of engine?

Hybrid even with mguH is perfectly simple until you try to optimise it within .0000001% for every metre of every lap, and that'll happen for any kind of engine you can think of

nzjrs
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Re: Real reasons of world class automobile manufacturers struggle for enter or return to F1

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izzy wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:40 am
But is there an engine of any kind that someone could come in and be competitive with? i mean in principle it's not much harder than a high revving V8 is it? If it's fuel flow limited which is pretty fundamental to the whole idea. After that there's just two electromotors and a battery and a turbo and making them work in a fairly obvious way like deploying early for the area under the curve down the straight, charging when you can, and so on.
This is a parody, correct?

I nice heuristic I have developed in my life is to take note of when someone, slips in the word 'Just'. Behind every 'Just' lies the uncountable work of numerous engineers, working tirelessly to make something extremely complex 'Just-able' by random commenters.

But if you are really interested in why lies behind a Just, as it relates to this forum, there is 6 years of discussion in the honda power unit thread viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18874

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izzy
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Re: Real reasons of world class automobile manufacturers struggle for enter or return to F1

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nzjrs wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:14 am
This is a parody, correct?

I nice heuristic I have developed in my life is to take note of when someone, slips in the word 'Just'. Behind every 'Just' lies the uncountable work of numerous engineers, working tirelessly to make something extremely complex 'Just-able' by random commenters.

But if you are really interested in why lies behind a Just, as it relates to this forum, there is 6 years of discussion in the honda power unit thread viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18874
Nice heuristic, but the principles are simple enough aren't they, it's optimising that's complicated. So what kind of engine could poor old Porsche have that'd give them a chance? Just tell me that :)

Giblet
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Re: Real reasons of world class automobile manufacturers struggle for enter or return to F1

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El Scorchio wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:13 pm
Holm86 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:20 pm
The current engine regulations are a big factor, these engines are just too advanced, and even if a new manufacturer could build a great engine from scratch, all the other manufactures have 6 years of experience in how to utilise the ERS systems most efficiently that they would need to catch up with.
True. Although it's Ok for Honda now, does anyone want to go through the huge public disrespect they had at the hands of Alonso and McLaren?

Look at how Red Bull started treating Renault the moment they weren't winning any more, and look how pirelli have been treated. Who needs that sort of hassle, with people just rubbishing your product week in week out?
Other than Alonso's legit radio outbursts, McLaren NEVER threw Honda under the bus. Yes they said so if it was the PU that failed, but they never treated them like Red Bull did Renault.

Honda, and I am a fan of them, did not produce a legit engine for three straight seasons, and two of them were a complete and total unmitigated disaster.

Ron Dennis asking for a "size zero" engine is not why Honda failed repeatedly. Honda making exploding engines did.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute