2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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djos
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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AJI wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:05 am
The only absolute reason no PU era car has ever had a hot vee is because that is what is prescribed in the rules.
As Holm pointed out, two LMP1 cars were hot vee, both designs won championships.
Formula 2 engines are hot vee.

It's clearly not impossible...
If a Hot V configuration was such a great concept for the hybrid PU's, dont you think the teams would have lobbied to have the current restriction lifted?

I think their silence means that it was looked at and discarded as not worth the effort.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

AJI
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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djos wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:39 am
AJI wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:05 am
The only absolute reason no PU era car has ever had a hot vee is because that is what is prescribed in the rules.
As Holm pointed out, two LMP1 cars were hot vee, both designs won championships.
Formula 2 engines are hot vee.

It's clearly not impossible...
If a Hot V configuration was such a great concept for the hybrid PU's, dont you think the teams would have lobbied to have the current restriction lifted?

I think their silence means that it was looked at and discarded as not worth the effort.
Why all the hate for hot vee? I cite 3 manufacturers who use it, and all I get is no one likes it? So much for innovation...

Anyway, teams don't set the specs. Manufacturers are consulted, but they don't get to write the rules. Do you really think the teams wanted a 3 throw 90 degree V6 with no VVT and only 1 injector to try and build the most efficient engine in the world? Andy Cowell isn't silent. He stated years ago that he'd prefer a v4 or an even firing v6 and lower revs, but he's just the guy who heads up the company that makes the most successful F1 PU of all time, he doesn't get to make the rules.

Anyway, what else are we going to talk about while we're locked down watching an F1 season slowly dissapear?

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djos
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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AJI wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:21 am
Why all the hate for hot vee? I cite 3 manufacturers who use it, and all I get is no one likes it? So much for innovation...
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see other Engine configs, however, in the Hybrid era I just don't see the hot-v concept making a meaningful improvement over the cold-v we currently have.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Holm86
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Also both Mercedes and BMW roadcar V8's are now hot vee's as they claim it's more efficient.

I just don't think the manufacturers care to lobby such a thing, as it isn't a major thing after all, when the regulations are the same for everyone.

As AJI says they don't even lobby an even firing engine at least. And I think I'd be easier to make an even firing engine last longer as it doesn't have the same bad harmonics

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djos
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Holm86 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:33 am
Also both Mercedes and BMW roadcar V8's are now hot vee's as they claim it's more efficient.

I just don't think the manufacturers care to lobby such a thing, as it isn't a major thing after all, when the regulations are the same for everyone.

As AJI says they don't even lobby an even firing engine at least. And I think I'd be easier to make an even firing engine last longer as it doesn't have the same bad harmonics
They aren’t hybrids tho are they?
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

saviour stivala
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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I haven’t read anybody saying it is not possible, what some have been saying is with the present power unit an exhaust configuration in the vee is not practical. If it was and most importantly offers an advantage of sorts that would have been the direction the present designs would have followed. The rules/regulations disallowing such a set-up, contrary to some believe, have been agreed upon by all of the three original manufacturers at the time the rules were settled upon.

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Holm86
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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djos wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:47 am
Holm86 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:33 am
Also both Mercedes and BMW roadcar V8's are now hot vee's as they claim it's more efficient.

I just don't think the manufacturers care to lobby such a thing, as it isn't a major thing after all, when the regulations are the same for everyone.

As AJI says they don't even lobby an even firing engine at least. And I think I'd be easier to make an even firing engine last longer as it doesn't have the same bad harmonics
They aren’t hybrids tho are they?
Your point being?

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Holm86
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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And a little edit to my previous post, I didn't remeber correctly, the Porsche V4 is a regular cold vee
Image

But looking at the Audi LMP V6 TDI, I don't think it looks that much wider, keep ind mind that the Porche engine is 90° bank angle, like F1, and the Audi is a 120°
Image

I think it should be possible to tuck those airboxes in on the side of the engine

saviour stivala
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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His point is. No MGU-H on the turboshaft.

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djos
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Holm86 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:25 am
djos wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:47 am
Holm86 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:33 am
Also both Mercedes and BMW roadcar V8's are now hot vee's as they claim it's more efficient.

I just don't think the manufacturers care to lobby such a thing, as it isn't a major thing after all, when the regulations are the same for everyone.

As AJI says they don't even lobby an even firing engine at least. And I think I'd be easier to make an even firing engine last longer as it doesn't have the same bad harmonics
They aren’t hybrids tho are they?
Your point being?
The hybrid parts add a huge amount of complexity and going hot vee is quite simple when you don’t have hybrid components to package.

Your picture of the Audi engine didn’t help your case, by F1 standards it’s a monster and way way too wide! LMP cars don’t have the same aero constraints as open wheelers and have a lot more space to work with.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Holm86
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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djos wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:44 am
Holm86 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:25 am
djos wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:47 am


They aren’t hybrids tho are they?
Your point being?
The hybrid parts add a huge amount of complexity and going hot vee is quite simple when you don’t have hybrid components to package.

Your picture of the Audi engine didn’t help your case, by F1 standards it’s a monster and way way too wide! LMP cars don’t have the same aero contains ad open wheelers abs have a lot more space to work with.
As I said the Audi engine is 120°, which makes it a lot wider than 90°.
In fact I can't even see why the current F1 engine aren't 60°

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djos
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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The rules are what the manufacturers asked for when the FIA consulted them.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Holm86
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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djos wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:08 am
The rules are what the manufacturers asked for when the FIA consulted them.
They havde listned to some points from the manufactures, but the rest is dictated by FIA.
Only thing I've heard a team had influence on, was that Ferrari complained about the original idea of a straight 4 engine

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Holm86 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:02 am
.... I can't even see why the current F1 engine aren't 60°
60 deg is worse than 90 deg in most ways

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Holm86
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:15 am
Holm86 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:02 am
.... I can't even see why the current F1 engine aren't 60°
60 deg is worse than 90 deg in most ways
Not when it comes to balancing, if you run even firing.
At least I don't get why offset crank pins arent allowed