Opinion: Why Asian F1 constructors are far left behind European F1 constructors?

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theriusDR3
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Opinion: Why Asian F1 constructors are far left behind European F1 constructors?

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Jenson Button brought Honda to end European GP winner domination in Hungarian GP 2006

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Jarno Trulli's 2009 Japanese GP podium with Toyota was the last-ever Japanese F1 constructor to scored a podium to date

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Sergio Perez's 2018 Azerbaijan GP podium was the last-ever Asian F1 constructor to score a podium to date

Since F1's first inception 1950 European teams always won and dominate the F1 constructor's title in fact. First-ever Asian F1 team to score a podium and win was Honda's Richie Ginther in Mexico 1965, the last win was Honda's John Surtees in Monza 1967 and last podium was John Surtees in Watkins Glen 1968.

Last Asian F1 engine manufacturer to won F1 title was Honda in 1991 when Honda was McLaren's engine supplier that time.

Since the start of 21st century, Toyota was the first Asian F1 constructor to score a podium back in Sepang 2005 with Jarno Trulli. A year later Honda ends the European-American Grand Prix winner duopoly to become the first Asian F1 constructor to won the F1 Grand Prix race back in Hungary 2006 with Jenson Button. Last Asian F1 constructor to scored a podium was back in 2009 when Jarno Trulli scored a 2nd place finish at Suzuka.

Since 2010 until present no Japanese teams are representing F1 to date but in 2010-2014 Lotus later Caterham was only the Asian team from Malaysia to represent F1 despite based in UK and also Force India in 2008-2018 from India. Only Honda the Asian engine manufacturer to represent F1 as an engine supplier only currently since 2015.

Your opinions?
Last edited by theriusDR3 on Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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izzy
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Re: Opinion: Why Asian F1 constructors are far left behind European F1 constructors?

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Mercedes have 19 different nationalities in the team. It's not really Mercedes at all! Just like when Schumi was winning everything you could say it wasn't really Ferrari. Not being nationalistic is one part of it i think, and now Honda are kind of racially hybrid too

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Big Tea
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Re: Opinion: Why Asian F1 constructors are far left behind European F1 constructors?

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Could be the same reason British Baseball teams are never in the top American league. There is probably not enough interest outside of these with an interest (if you follow LOL)
I know the GP gets huge turnouts in Japan etc, but would the directors and finance people have the same feelings if they were poring money into it?
Honda were on the verge of winning when the pull out happened and as much as they put into it Toyota were still half-harted.

The capability is there, but not the hard core wil apparently. See how Honda change things next year.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

Jolle
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Re: Opinion: Why Asian F1 constructors are far left behind European F1 constructors?

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The youngest of the top teams is RedBull, which is almost 25 years old, and apart from Ferrari, they are all within a motor sport rich area. Toyota just made the mistake to have their Homebase in Koln and not having it ran by a well oiled race team, like Daimler did.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Opinion: Why Asian F1 constructors are far left behind European F1 constructors?

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Why american teams are irrelevant in F1?

Why germans have no relevant bullfighters?

Why europeans have no sumo wrestlers?


As Big Tea said, it´s just a matter of tradition and interest. No interesest in a country means small audience numbers, wich means sponsors will never provide same money than on a country where interest is much higher (less revenue), and with less money no team, no matter their nationality, can be competitive

Toyota didn´t have money problems but the lack of tradition also means lack of experience, and experience is as important as money

NL_Fer
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Re: Opinion: Why Asian F1 constructors are far left behind European F1 constructors?

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Toyota F1 was based on the wrong location, never impressed much. Honda designed the winner 2009 chassis, but pulled out before the season started. Altough we will never know if the Brawn GP would be just as fast with a Honda powerunit.

Manoah2u
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Re: Opinion: Why Asian F1 constructors are far left behind European F1 constructors?

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How are they 'really' behind?
What classifies as 'behind'?

Let's take in some facts:

2019 Sale numbers :

1. VAG Group : 3,296,440 cars sold in 2019 alone.
2. Toyota Corporation : 3,115,343 cars sold in 2019.
3. FCA Alliance (Renault, Mistubishi, Nissan) 2,992,471 cars in 2019.

So we only hit at the FCA alliance where we encounter a brand thats also in F1. So despite the VAG group and Toyota NOT being in F1,
they sell about 200.000 to 400.000 MORE cars ANNUALLY.

Which then raises the question: if Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault are 'in front' of 'Asian brands' (Honda, Toyota) in F1, then why aren't we seeing that in car sales?
You could offcourse argue Ferrari is more exclusive, but I wouldn't really concider that goes that much for Mercedes.

It's thus down to interest, neccesity and benefit of participating in F1 and to which 'degree'.

Behind? I really dont think that's how you should look at it.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

Jolle
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Re: Opinion: Why Asian F1 constructors are far left behind European F1 constructors?

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Manoah2u wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:14 pm
How are they 'really' behind?
What classifies as 'behind'?

Let's take in some facts:

2019 Sale numbers :

1. VAG Group : 3,296,440 cars sold in 2019 alone.
2. Toyota Corporation : 3,115,343 cars sold in 2019.
3. FCA Alliance (Renault, Mistubishi, Nissan) 2,992,471 cars in 2019.

So we only hit at the FCA alliance where we encounter a brand thats also in F1. So despite the VAG group and Toyota NOT being in F1,
they sell about 200.000 to 400.000 MORE cars ANNUALLY.

Which then raises the question: if Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault are 'in front' of 'Asian brands' (Honda, Toyota) in F1, then why aren't we seeing that in car sales?
You could offcourse argue Ferrari is more exclusive, but I wouldn't really concider that goes that much for Mercedes.

It's thus down to interest, neccesity and benefit of participating in F1 and to which 'degree'.

Behind? I really dont think that's how you should look at it.
Global sales numbers are only part of the equation. Turnover, margin and profit are more important. Daimler only has to sell one car to Toyota 5 (a guess) to have the same turnover and with their higher margin, they make more profit.

F1 can be used to expand in certain markets or to boost the image of your fleet so you can sell more high margin products.

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JordanMugen
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Re: Opinion: Why Asian F1 constructors are far left behind European F1 constructors?

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theriusDR3 wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:11 am
Last Asian F1 engine manufacturer to won F1 title was Honda in 1991 when Honda was McLaren's engine supplier that time.
Yet the most successful engine manufacturer in F1 is America's Ford Motor Company. Not a European manufacturer as such, albeit it could be argued that Ford-Werke GmbH is more German than American.
Your opinions?
Since F1 is predominantly a European series, surely it's self-evident why European manufacturers and engine companies are more successful? :)

Despite this, the more I look into and repair my Renault passenger car, the more it seems shoddy and poorly made compared to my previous Honda passenger cars. :cry: Everything on a Honda is exacting and precise, logical and well-made, the more I looked into it the more impressed I became.

The Renault, however, very much seems to be a built and assembled with a "close enough is good enough" philosophy - it seems OK at a superficial level (fit and finish and paint quality is all fine) but the more you look into it, the more unimpressed you get.

The wiring is very messy -- not just on the engine (as opposed to the neat plastic runners with tidy wiring on a Honda engine), but in the cabin loom as well: some of the wiring runs are nowhere near the right length and are coiled-up with a cable-tie, one of the body control modules was double-sided-taped (!!!) to the inside of the boot and had fallen off, the design of the air-intake seems crude compared to that of a Honda, an abundance of plastic parts in the clutch and engine cooling systems, a poorly executed left-hand-drive to right-hand-drive conversion... I can go on and on... Quite disappointing. :|
Manoah2u wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:14 pm
if Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault are 'in front' of 'Asian brands' (Honda, Toyota) in F1, then why aren't we seeing that in car sales?
Because each new vehicle market has it's own biases and preferences?

Where VAG and Renault brands dominate small cars sales in the EU (IIRC Toyota are a disappointing 5th or 6th place in EU cars sales); in Asia, Australasia and North America on the other hand, small car sales are dominated by Japanese and Korean brands, particularly Toyota.

In the Middle East, Toyota reigns supreme... particularly for 4WDs. Say what you like about Toyota's (mostly) conservative and outdated designs -- in addition to having high levels of quality control to start with, the old-fashioned layout of Toyota vehicles (LOTS of space in the engine bay, with seemingly an aversion to placing styling before serviceability) makes them easy to repair and so mechanics love them. It's almost as if Toyota are scared of changing anything unnecessarily, in case mechanics complain.

Of course too, the American affection for full-size pick-up trucks is well known. While Toyota and Nissan do dabble in that space, the big seller (and indeed best selling vehicle in the world at times?) are the American pick-ups, such as the Ford F150.

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JordanMugen
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Re: Opinion: Why Asian F1 constructors are far left behind European F1 constructors?

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Jolle wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:27 pm
Toyota just made the mistake to have their Homebase in Koln and not having it ran by a well oiled race team
So "superb German engineering" is a myth^, eh? :wink: :lol:

Surely a competitive WRC and Le Mans team -- indeed at present still the leading team in Le Mans racing -- is more than sufficiently credentialed to run an F1 team, it's just that F1 is difficult.

Between 2010 and 2012, the Mercedes F1 team appeared barely more competent than the Toyota F1 team -- if more competent than Toyota at all. The BMW F1 team also appeared to lack competence in the 2009 season. It ain't easy this F1 malarky!

Greg Locock
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Re: Opinion: Why Asian F1 constructors are far left behind European F1 constructors?

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Toyota made a net income of $18billion on 10 million vehicles.

Daimler made a net income of $3Billion on 3 million vehicles. Figures from wiki.

So " Daimler only has to sell one car to Toyota 5 (a guess) to have the same turnover and with their higher margin, they make more profit." is between 300 and 600% wrong. Quite impressive really.

Jolle
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Re: Opinion: Why Asian F1 constructors are far left behind European F1 constructors?

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Greg Locock wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:10 am
Toyota made a net income of $18billion on 10 million vehicles.

Daimler made a net income of $3Billion on 3 million vehicles. Figures from wiki.

So " Daimler only has to sell one car to Toyota 5 (a guess) to have the same turnover and with their higher margin, they make more profit." is between 300 and 600% wrong. Quite impressive really.
Toyota is doing extremely well indeed. In sales, a double benefit of the weak euro and dollar (and stronger YN). Daimler has a difficult year, the year before they had 4x that gross profit.

Somehow Toyota has found the key to avoid the economic recession.

Greg Locock
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Re: Opinion: Why Asian F1 constructors are far left behind European F1 constructors?

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So when faced with facts, bluster.

If you wish to try and save face do the same analysis for previous years. bet you don't.

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JordanMugen
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Re: Opinion: Why Asian F1 constructors are far left behind European F1 constructors?

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Greg Locock wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:10 am
Toyota made a net income of $18billion on 10 million vehicles.
If you don't mind me asking, how come there is a perception that Ford Australia cars were not as well made as Toyota Australia cars (or Toyota cars globally)?

There are complaints by Falcon and Territory enthusiasts of common Ford Australia faults that hadn't been fixed for literally decades, like door lock mechanisms and later differential bushes, transmission cooler and so on, despite opportunity to fix these issues on various new model releases. How come things like that were never addressed by Ford Australia? :)

It is just due to Ford (and many other manufacturers like Renault, General Motors, Volkswagen etc) having a less meticulous and less exacting approach to designing and building vehicles compared to Toyota and most of the other Japanese manufactures? Or something like less of an emphasis on designing for durability, as long as it drives well when it's brand new?

References:
https://www.autoguru.com.au/car-advice/ ... on-repairs
http://www.fastlane.com.au/Forum/postst ... blems.aspx
https://www.fordxr6turbo.com/forum/topi ... bout-them/

Greg Locock
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Re: Opinion: Why Asian F1 constructors are far left behind European F1 constructors?

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Beats me, you are obviously the expert, because blogs. If you've read The Machine that Changed the World, Car (by Walton) and The Toyota Way, you'd probably realise that reality is lumpy.