2020 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 17-19

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mixed forecasts for today. Some say is may be wet, especially towards the 2nd half of the race, others say all rain clouds are gone till the race heads off.

https://www.yr.no/place/Hungary/Pest/Hu ... _hour.html
https://www.eltiempo.es/mogyorod.html?v=por_hora

[zibby43]

Already any ideas what that mysterious puff of smoke coming out of Mercedes powered cars might be? Significant power advantage in party mode combined with smoke. That was enough to be highly suspicious not so long ago. I would be surprised if none of the teams would do anything to clear that up.

Nobody seems to be giving a f@ck about it. Everybody noticed the Ferraris smoking 2 years ago and we all know how that went. I guess even if Mercedes is 5 seconds ahead of everyone, nobody will raise an eyebrow because it will be ingenious and innovative.

It’s weird isn’t it. Today they were 1.3 seconds faster than last year and the W10 was a hell of a car already. That’s just crazy. I’m not saying their car is illegal, but it’s strange no one raises an eyebrow. At least yet.
Let’s put the PU aside, it’s almost as if there is something special going on on their car and DAS is only there to put the focus off of something else. Just can’t believe DAS making that much of a difference to overall performance.

Significant power advantage? They're roughly 20 hp ahead of the Honda this year. Even the Renault PU isn't far away. Ferrari gave the folks at Brixworth a false target to chase, and Mercedes almost completely re-designed their PU for '20.

On the chassis/aero side, t's not just DAS. DAS is a bit of a red herring, IMO.

Mercedes have packed the W11 full of innovations. Their rear suspension design is incredible, and I think the re-design there, combined with their switch to the high-top sidepod inlets and a completely new diffuser this year, is giving the W11 efficient downforce via 2 of the most vital areas in terms of powerful, efficient downforce: the floor and diffuser.

[falonso81]

Even as their fan i am 150% certain something is up with that car. To pull 1.2 seconds on your W10, where that car was the king of downforce, on a downforce sensitive track.. seems the entire chassis is swimming in grey areas. I’ll wait for Monza to see the gaps, because that PU which seems to have awoken even the relegation Williams, is probably the Pandora's box for this year.

I agree but if a non Merc fan points the finger at Merc cheating, the other forum members will eat him alive!
There is no way on earth they found so much performance solely on legal grounds. If they did, that means all the other tech personell and aero guys of the rest of the field are useless and need to go home.

[zibby43]

Even as their fan i am 150% certain something is up with that car. To pull 1.2 seconds on your W10, where that car was the king of downforce, on a downforce sensitive track.. seems the entire chassis is swimming in grey areas. I’ll wait for Monza to see the gaps, because that PU which seems to have awoken even the relegation Williams, is probably the Pandora's box for this year.

I agree but if a non Merc fan points the finger at Merc cheating, the other forum members will eat him alive!
There is no way on earth they found so much performance solely on legal grounds. If they did, that means all the other tech personell and aero guys of the rest of the field are useless and need to go home.

Maybe because all the claims are grasping at straws in the dark.

I'm just looking forward to someone explaining to me how the Merc chassis is swimming in gray areas when it is literally weighed and measured every weekend in scrutineering.

None of this talk was happening in Austria/Styria. But, Red Bull has a bad qualifying where they go backward relative to their performance last year, despite stable regulations, but all of a sudden, somehow it is the Merc that is suspicious.

It seems that most of the time in this hybrid era, when Technical Directives have been issued, it is Merc's competitors that have taken a step back, not Mercedes. Which to me, implies one team does have an amazing team of engineers pushing the limits legally, and building on those foundations every year, whereas others are looking for shortcuts, and end up getting burned when they get caught.

[GPR-A]

Even as their fan i am 150% certain something is up with that car. To pull 1.2 seconds on your W10, where that car was the king of downforce, on a downforce sensitive track.. seems the entire chassis is swimming in grey areas. I’ll wait for Monza to see the gaps, because that PU which seems to have awoken even the relegation Williams, is probably the Pandora's box for this year.

I agree but if a non Merc fan points the finger at Merc cheating, the other forum members will eat him alive!
There is no way on earth they found so much performance solely on legal grounds. If they did, that means all the other tech personell and aero guys of the rest of the field are useless and need to go home.

Toto said the exact same thing last year that, no way Ferrari could have gained so much power with such stable regulations and his team then went on to help FIA to understand where Ferrari is exploiting a grey area. FIA promptly acted on it and added an additional fuel sensor. Now it's time for Honda, Ferrari and Renault to find out what Mercedes is doing and help FIA! It's that simple. No amount of crying on internet forum is going to solve the problem, if there is one.

[michl420]

I think mercedes gained the most (or have lost the least) with their power unit over the winter. Thats on part of their dominance.

[zibby43]

Even as their fan i am 150% certain something is up with that car. To pull 1.2 seconds on your W10, where that car was the king of downforce, on a downforce sensitive track.. seems the entire chassis is swimming in grey areas. I’ll wait for Monza to see the gaps, because that PU which seems to have awoken even the relegation Williams, is probably the Pandora's box for this year.

I agree but if a non Merc fan points the finger at Merc cheating, the other forum members will eat him alive!
There is no way on earth they found so much performance solely on legal grounds. If they did, that means all the other tech personell and aero guys of the rest of the field are useless and need to go home.

Toto said the exact same thing last year that, no way Ferrari could have gained so much power with such stable regulations and his team then went on to help FIA to understand where Ferrari is exploiting a grey area. FIA promptly acted on it and added an additional fuel sensor. Now it's time for Honda, Ferrari and Renault to find out what Mercedes is doing and help FIA! It's that simple. No amount of crying on internet forum is going to solve the problem, if there is one.

I would add, it was the Merc engineers who discovered what Ferrari was doing with the fuel flow sensor, and shared it with RB.

Merc could've easily kept that discovery to themselves and incorporated it themselves. But instead of a shortcut, they shared the information and had it clarified/rectified. Tells me all I need to know about how the team operates.

[michl420]

Already any ideas what that mysterious puff of smoke coming out of Mercedes powered cars might be? Significant power advantage in party mode combined with smoke. That was enough to be highly suspicious not so long ago. I would be surprised if none of the teams would do anything to clear that up.

It´s coming out of the crankcase breather next to the rear crash structure. On the Racing Point is was at the beginning of the race, so i would say oil level too high.

[GPR-A]

Nobody seems to be giving a f@ck about it. Everybody noticed the Ferraris smoking 2 years ago and we all know how that went. I guess even if Mercedes is 5 seconds ahead of everyone, nobody will raise an eyebrow because it will be ingenious and innovative.

It’s weird isn’t it. Today they were 1.3 seconds faster than last year and the W10 was a hell of a car already. That’s just crazy. I’m not saying their car is illegal, but it’s strange no one raises an eyebrow. At least yet.
Let’s put the PU aside, it’s almost as if there is something special going on on their car and DAS is only there to put the focus off of something else. Just can’t believe DAS making that much of a difference to overall performance.

Significant power advantage? They're roughly 20 hp ahead of the Honda this year. Even the Renault PU isn't far away. Ferrari gave the folks at Brixworth a false target to chase, and Mercedes almost completely re-designed their PU for '20.

On the chassis/aero side, t's not just DAS. DAS is a bit of a red herring, IMO.

Mercedes have packed the W11 full of innovations. Their rear suspension design is incredible, and I think the re-design there, combined with their switch to the high-top sidepod inlets and a completely new diffuser this year, is giving the W11 efficient downforce via 2 of the most vital areas in terms of powerful, efficient downforce: the floor and diffuser.

Before the winter testing, there were rumors about Mercedes bringing some innovations that were not seen in F1 before and we have seen some of them so far. In one of his interviews at the launch, Allison mentioned that they have added a lot of downforce now to the car at the same exact drag penalty as last year. Because last year, they built a chassis with the single objective of "downforce at any cost" which had made the W10 a very draggy car.

Link -> Binotto engine claims "another bullshit story", slams Wolff

Wolff said Mercedes was pushed to "burnout" levels by Ferrari last year, and suggested that it is "ironic" that the Stuttgart manufacturer has taken a big step in performance as a result.

"I think the irony of the story is that we were pushed by some of our competitors to absolutely new levels. It brought us to almost burnout last year, to develop and innovate in a way to be competitive on track.

"And here we go, I think we made a substantial jump in performance from 2019 to 2020. Because we needed to last year, and that is a little bit ironic for me."

[zibby43]

It’s weird isn’t it. Today they were 1.3 seconds faster than last year and the W10 was a hell of a car already. That’s just crazy. I’m not saying their car is illegal, but it’s strange no one raises an eyebrow. At least yet.
Let’s put the PU aside, it’s almost as if there is something special going on on their car and DAS is only there to put the focus off of something else. Just can’t believe DAS making that much of a difference to overall performance.

Significant power advantage? They're roughly 20 hp ahead of the Honda this year. Even the Renault PU isn't far away. Ferrari gave the folks at Brixworth a false target to chase, and Mercedes almost completely re-designed their PU for '20.

On the chassis/aero side, t's not just DAS. DAS is a bit of a red herring, IMO.

Mercedes have packed the W11 full of innovations. Their rear suspension design is incredible, and I think the re-design there, combined with their switch to the high-top sidepod inlets and a completely new diffuser this year, is giving the W11 efficient downforce via 2 of the most vital areas in terms of powerful, efficient downforce: the floor and diffuser.

Before the winter testing, there were rumors about Mercedes bringing some innovations that were not seen in F1 before and we have seen some of them so far. In one of his interviews at the launch, Allison mentioned that they have added a lot of downforce now to the car at the same exact drag penalty as last year. Because last year, they built a chassis with the single objective of "downforce at any cost" which had made the W10 a very draggy car.

Link -> Binotto engine claims "another bullshit story", slams Wolff

Wolff said Mercedes was pushed to "burnout" levels by Ferrari last year, and suggested that it is "ironic" that the Stuttgart manufacturer has taken a big step in performance as a result.

"I think the irony of the story is that we were pushed by some of our competitors to absolutely new levels. It brought us to almost burnout last year, to develop and innovate in a way to be competitive on track.

"And here we go, I think we made a substantial jump in performance from 2019 to 2020. Because we needed to last year, and that is a little bit ironic for me."

Excellent post with great info. I was always shocked by how little discussion Merc’s new rear suspension received outside the technical thread. I think that has allowed them to cut a significant amount of drag from the car and instead better utilize the rear floor/diffuser area.

dans79 has noticed the rear suspension since launch, so kudos to his eye there.

[zibby43]

Already any ideas what that mysterious puff of smoke coming out of Mercedes powered cars might be? Significant power advantage in party mode combined with smoke. That was enough to be highly suspicious not so long ago. I would be surprised if none of the teams would do anything to clear that up.

It´s coming out of the crankcase breather next to the rear crash structure. On the Racing Point is was at the beginning of the race, so i would say oil level too high.

Bingo. Overfill is what I’ve suspected as well. Probably has to do with the packaging this year as well, which is why we see the puffs happening early in the session, and on the customer cars as well.

[Bill]

Mercedes doesn't have a super powerunit if you look at Redbull they lose only a tenth or two on first sector and the rest 1 seconds on the corners.Mercedes will need upward of 100hp to make that difference with pu alone

[JordanMugen]

There is no way on earth they found so much performance solely on legal grounds. If they did, that means all the other tech personell and aero guys of the rest of the field are useless and need to go home.

C'mon, what kind of rumour is that. Mercedes have the biggest budget and the most engineers -- why wouldn't they find lots of improvement?

Much of the improvement is on the power unit side rather than chassis after all, and is also benefiting Racing Point and Williams.

Their advantage appears exaggerated because Red Bull are at sea at this track while Ferrari have mostly gone backwards. Competition is relative.

Adam Cooper @adamcooperF1
17 m
A wet and grey day in Budapest, big storm this morning.
Not raining now but looks like it will come and go all day:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdRXqVSWAAA ... name=small

This could make it exciting!

[Just_a_fan]

There is no way on earth they found so much performance solely on legal grounds. If they did, that means all the other tech personell and aero guys of the rest of the field are useless and need to go home.

C'mon, what kind of rumour is that. Mercedes have the biggest budget and the most engineers -- why wouldn't they find lots of improvement?

I think Ferrari probably just win that battle in terms of budget, but them and Mercedes are very close on money and employees. Certainly Ferrari can't claim that Mercedes are outspending them.

[Just_a_fan]

Much of the improvement is on the power unit side rather than chassis after all, and is also benefiting Racing Point and Williams.

That they're way ahead of the Pink Merc shows that the other things they've done have brought lap time too. The rear suspension and the high sidepods have obviously had a decent affect.