Mercedes W11

[djones]

I think their leadership is without a doubt very good.

But I do wonder if Mercedes just put insane money into the development. It's not public knowledge, so they could be spending twice as much as even Ferrari for all we know.

I said this months before the season even started, but this year they are so fast because of Ferrari and their cheating last year. Mercedes had to try and equal a target that was 'fake'. The only main way to do this would have been to dump more and more money into the engine development etc. The result is clear for all to now see.

[simieski]

I think their leadership is without a doubt very good.

But I do wonder if Mercedes just put insane money into the development. It's not public knowledge, so they could be spending twice as much as even Ferrari for all we know.

I said this months before the season even started, but this year they are so fast because of Ferrari and their cheating last year. Mercedes had to try and equal a target that was 'fake'. The only main way to do this would have been to dump more and more money into the engine development etc. The result is clear for all to now see.

Here you go...
HPP
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... ng-history
F1
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... ng-history

[djones]

That's good info.

But we still don't have knowledge of where they spend money with things like third parties?

For example, Mercedes (not HPP of Mercedes F1) could have outsourced £100m of materials research to another company. This would help them when it comes to budget caps and things like that.

[El Scorchio]

That's good info.

But we still don't have knowledge of where they spend money with things like third parties?

For example, Mercedes (not HPP of Mercedes F1) could have outsourced £100m of materials research to another company. This would help them when it comes to budget caps and things like that.

It seems like this is something you’d like to believe, rather than anything there’s any indication of.

[Gr1ff]

I think its clear the Mercedes is not just burning money to win, the buisness case is still important.

[Sieper]

these last few replies need to be moved to the Merc team thread. But didn't Merc already have like 1200 staff a few years back? and AMG also 600 more for the engine?

I think the business case is very clear. When you buy a Ferrari the mere fact that they are racing (in F1 and several other classes with their road cars) as long as they have is already enough for the extra shine, mystery, thoroughbred race feeling is already enough. In fact, the company I work for is on of the subsponsors of Ferrari and the opportunity to bring customers trackside is really great.

For RBR it is just marketing, keeping the flashy image of high energy alive. Extreme - Sporting, The team also displays that character imho.

But for Mercedes, who sell high numbers of streetcars the air of winning, of technical expertise, the lure of upgrading a normal mass product with an AMG engine (or buying a Mercedes supercar) is much more business critical. Winning is part of that. Lewis is also a polished spokesmen. Bottas maybe less so, but OK, he is agreeable.

Then there is Toto who is building a whole imperium for himself. Investing in Aston Martin. He already made sure they have a competitive car for the next seasons. He is pulling a lot of strings. Too many imho. F1 is at risk of a total merc takeover. 4 teams will have their engines next year. If Haas ceases that might mean almost halve the field.

[basti313]

I think their leadership is without a doubt very good.

But I do wonder if Mercedes just put insane money into the development. It's not public knowledge, so they could be spending twice as much as even Ferrari for all we know.

I said this months before the season even started, but this year they are so fast because of Ferrari and their cheating last year. Mercedes had to try and equal a target that was 'fake'. The only main way to do this would have been to dump more and more money into the engine development etc. The result is clear for all to now see.

I do not think it is like this. I think it is simply the case that they were holding back engine power last year. You can not do this from race to race, but you need to maintain a steady config over the season due to the customer teams and cooling layouts.
There is no other clear reason why Honda should have made these jumps last year towards Merc otherwise. This year they opened up the engine again...as the protest against Ferrari was successful they can unleash the best again. With a similarly powerful engine, the Ferrari tricks would still be "allowed".
You see this mostly in the customer teams. The jump of Williams is extreme, the jump of the copy not just down to good copying...
From the point of aero I think it is their usual evolution. But now they are also fast on the straight.

[GPR-A]

I think their leadership is without a doubt very good.

But I do wonder if Mercedes just put insane money into the development. It's not public knowledge, so they could be spending twice as much as even Ferrari for all we know.

I said this months before the season even started, but this year they are so fast because of Ferrari and their cheating last year. Mercedes had to try and equal a target that was 'fake'. The only main way to do this would have been to dump more and more money into the engine development etc. The result is clear for all to now see.

How do you know, Ferrari and Honda are not "putting insane money into the development and it's not public knowledge"?

How do they "put insane money into the development" without showing in the books? Daimler is the parent company holding 60% shares in Mercedes Petronas F1 team and a complete 100% holding into Mercedes-Benz HPP (engine division). HPP has to produce their accounts as they are public listed and here is a 2018 financial statement of HPP. They have spent 116 million in R&D expenses for 2018 as per their statement (vs 93 million in 2017). Of that, they have paid 46.8 million in "Wages and Salaries" in 2018 (vs 43.2 million in 2017). That can be explained by the raise in salaries and bonuses.

HPP now is NOT just an F1 engine division anymore and also undertakes Formula E, along with Hybrid supplies to Mercedes road cars and many other automobile initiatives.

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/docu ... cf8ca00479

We will soon see the 2019 statement and you can compare their expenses, which usually be out in October. If there is an unusual surge in expenses, especially in the Wages & Salaries (other than usual raise in salaries and bonuses), WITHOUT additional project undertakings, then they might have invested more for 2019 to get the performance benefit in 2020 engines.

On the Mercedes Petronas F1 team front, they haven't changed the number of personnel working their since past 2 years and are estimated to be around 1000 people (R&D, non R&D). If you spend some time, you will get a fair idea of account statements on this front too.

Keep an eye on this for their accounts statement.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... ng-history

[Just_a_fan]

Guys, this conversation would be better in the team thread rather the car-specific thread.

[Bill]

Mercedes are not doing anything extraordinary they just doing what expected from normal development programs it's the competition that's lacking Redbull brought a car that's slower than what they had last year even after one year of development.ferrari has obviously gone backwards due to pu so no team is left to take the fight to them

[HungarianRacer]

Mercedes are not doing anything extraordinary they just doing what expected from normal development programs it's the competition that's lacking Redbull brought a car that's slower than what they had last year even after one year of development.ferrari has obviously gone backwards due to pu so no team is left to take the fight to them

Pirelli mandates higher minimum tyre pressures this season, you cannot compare last year's lap times directly to this year's...

[Bill]

All teams have improved from last except 3 and Rbr is one of them.team on average find two second during a season.last year a new front wing was introduced so they are still gains to be found.

[dans79]

He is pulling a lot of strings. Too many imho. F1 is at risk of a total merc takeover. 4 teams will have their engines next year. If Haas ceases that might mean almost halve the field.

That's not something new, take a look at the 1969 season.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_Formula_One_season

• all 11 races where won by Cosworth engines.
• the top 4 in the WCC ran Cosworth engines.
• the top 10 in the WDC ran Cosworth engines.
• 19 of the 25 teams/people who participated in the season used Cosworth engines.

[Just_a_fan]

Mercedes are not doing anything extraordinary they just doing what expected from normal development programs it's the competition that's lacking Redbull brought a car that's slower than what they had last year even after one year of development.ferrari has obviously gone backwards due to pu so no team is left to take the fight to them

Pirelli mandates higher minimum tyre pressures this season, you cannot compare last year's lap times directly to this year's...

In the coverage for Hungary, there was mention that the minimum pressures were reduced for the race. It was one off line by one of the talking heads so no evidence that it's true or by how much the pressures have been reduced.

[Sieper]

He is pulling a lot of strings. Too many imho. F1 is at risk of a total merc takeover. 4 teams will have their engines next year. If Haas ceases that might mean almost halve the field.

That's not something new, take a look at the 1969 season.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_Formula_One_season

• all 11 races where won by Cosworth engines.
• the top 4 in the WCC ran Cosworth engines.
• the top 10 in the WDC ran Cosworth engines.
• 19 of the 25 teams/people who participated in the season used Cosworth engines.

Cosworth was just an engine supplier not also the dominant team (that just copied their car for another team as well that is now also top 3 to say the least, might be top 2 as well).