Mercedes W11

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
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Morteza
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Re: Mercedes W11

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mkay wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:53 am
Ted confirmed no new upgrade this weekend aside from weight reduction.

Rear wing is the same as Austria.
Thanks for the confirmation.
The front of the car was covered with Flow-Vis at the start of FP1 on Bottas' W11.
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

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Morteza
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Matthew Somerfield wrote:It's not a new rear wing per se on the Mercedes but they have taken off a lot of wing and aren't running a Gurney on the trailing edge of the top flap
Image
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

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atanatizante
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Re: Mercedes W11

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nico5 wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:07 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:21 pm

4. The last reason: with regards to the above motives and the fact that Ferrari PU is down on power (compared to 2019 unit) they are now ahead on power, although their net gains in HP for 2020 are not so big as some untrained eye could speculate ...


https://www.formulapassion.it/manifes ... 7688.html

Well, this pretty competent guy made (from telemetry) an estimate of 35-45hp more than last year in Hungary. Trained or untrained eye, it's not that little gain
Yeah, he could be pretty accurate with this figure, bearing in mind what Toto said about Ferrari which in return gained some 7-8 tenths on the straights at Spa, Nurburgring & Monza and Christian Horner saying W11 gained on average some 4 tenths on the straights in the last 3 races ... therefore, W11 PU has some 30-35HP more I should say ...
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hape
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Re: Mercedes W11

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atanatizante wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:41 pm
nico5 wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:07 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:21 pm

4. The last reason: with regards to the above motives and the fact that Ferrari PU is down on power (compared to 2019 unit) they are now ahead on power, although their net gains in HP for 2020 are not so big as some untrained eye could speculate ...


https://www.formulapassion.it/manifes ... 7688.html

Well, this pretty competent guy made (from telemetry) an estimate of 35-45hp more than last year in Hungary. Trained or untrained eye, it's not that little gain
Yeah, he could be pretty accurate with this figure, bearing in mind what Toto said about Ferrari which in return gained some 7-8 tenths on the straights at Spa, Nurburgring & Monza and Christian Horner saying W11 gained on average some 4 tenths on the straights in the last 3 races ... therefore, W11 PU has some 30-35HP more I should say ...
The 7 to 8th Ferrari gained last year were of course due to a very strong engine but also because of their low drag low downforce concept. So to conclude the 30-35HP gains of Mercedes over the winter, based on data of another car concept, on different tracks, seems a little tricky.

nico5
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Re: Mercedes W11

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hape wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:12 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:41 pm
nico5 wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:07 pm




https://www.formulapassion.it/manifes ... 7688.html

Well, this pretty competent guy made (from telemetry) an estimate of 35-45hp more than last year in Hungary. Trained or untrained eye, it's not that little gain
Yeah, he could be pretty accurate with this figure, bearing in mind what Toto said about Ferrari which in return gained some 7-8 tenths on the straights at Spa, Nurburgring & Monza and Christian Horner saying W11 gained on average some 4 tenths on the straights in the last 3 races ... therefore, W11 PU has some 30-35HP more I should say ...
The 7 to 8th Ferrari gained last year were of course due to a very strong engine but also because of their low drag low downforce concept. So to conclude the 30-35HP gains of Mercedes over the winter, based on data of another car concept, on different tracks, seems a little tricky.
The analysis was focused on the very first phase of acceleration, comparing the longitudinal forces on the W10 up against the W11's, during Hungary's Q3 laps. It suggested they would gain from 0.05 to 0.19 Gs out of each corner, when 0.1G equals to an extra acceleration of 3.5kph/second, which is not insignificant by all means. Also, gear shifts would take place in a ~200rpm higher range. There's another article from today pointing at the fact Ferrari lost about 50hp through the winter, as had been suggested on Ferrari's engine thread already. They'd be now trailing by 30/40hp.

hape
hape
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Re: Mercedes W11

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nico5 wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:14 pm
hape wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:12 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:41 pm


Yeah, he could be pretty accurate with this figure, bearing in mind what Toto said about Ferrari which in return gained some 7-8 tenths on the straights at Spa, Nurburgring & Monza and Christian Horner saying W11 gained on average some 4 tenths on the straights in the last 3 races ... therefore, W11 PU has some 30-35HP more I should say ...
The 7 to 8th Ferrari gained last year were of course due to a very strong engine but also because of their low drag low downforce concept. So to conclude the 30-35HP gains of Mercedes over the winter, based on data of another car concept, on different tracks, seems a little tricky.
The analysis was focused on the very first phase of acceleration, comparing the longitudinal forces on the W10 up against the W11's, during Hungary's Q3 laps. It suggested they would gain from 0.05 to 0.19 Gs out of each corner, when 0.1G equals to an extra acceleration of 3.5kph/second, which is not insignificant by all means. Also, gear shifts would take place in a ~200rpm higher range. There's another article from today pointing at the fact Ferrari lost about 50hp through the winter, as had been suggested on Ferrari's engine thread already. They'd be now trailing by 30/40hp.
I know, I’ve read the article and thanks for posting it. I found it interesting to read.
The gains made by Mercedes over last year is mostly on accelerating.

Returning to my remarks to anatatizante: The article estimates 35-45HP based on acceleration. He estimated 30-35HP based on the advantage Ferrari had over other cars in 2019. The latter method I think is not accurate.

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Nice comparison illustrations between the Silverstone (top) and Hungary (bottom) RW specs.

One of the main differences on the Silverstone spec wing (in comparison to even the Austria spec), was, as pointed out above, the removal of the Gurney flap from the trailing edge of the uppermost RW flap.

The Silverstone spec also has the single-pylon support, which helps to minimize flow separation across the wing, as well as reduce any turbulence on the upper side of the wing (by virtue of being mounted on the underside).

Image

Image

(Images/Credit: Giorgio Piola and Matthew Somerfield)

dans79
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Re: Mercedes W11

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I think this is more conjecture than anything else, but still interesting.

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-te ... a/4848120/
Motorsport.com obtained the phonometric surveys carried out in qualifying at Silverstone: the power measurements showed surprising data. The full boost Mercedes power unit was the only one to increase horsepower compared to last year. Honda pays a gap of 28 hp, Renault pays a 37 hp, while Ferrari is last with a gap of 42 hp.
The power unit of Lewis Hamilton squeezed in Q3 showed 1,022 horses, while that of Valtteri Bottas stopped at 1,020 horses. A nothing that does not justify the gap of three tenths that the ex-champion has inflicted on the good Finnish, but which explains the impressive difference with all the others who, at least in the dry lap, just don't exist.

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Holm86
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Re: Mercedes W11

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:21 pm
I think this is more conjecture than anything else, but still interesting.

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-te ... a/4848120/
Motorsport.com obtained the phonometric surveys carried out in qualifying at Silverstone: the power measurements showed surprising data. The full boost Mercedes power unit was the only one to increase horsepower compared to last year. Honda pays a gap of 28 hp, Renault pays a 37 hp, while Ferrari is last with a gap of 42 hp.
The power unit of Lewis Hamilton squeezed in Q3 showed 1,022 horses, while that of Valtteri Bottas stopped at 1,020 horses. A nothing that does not justify the gap of three tenths that the ex-champion has inflicted on the good Finnish, but which explains the impressive difference with all the others who, at least in the dry lap, just don't exist.
How do they even calculate HP from videos??
Doesn't it take a lot of different factors like drag etc to even get a somewhat precise estimate??

LM10
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Holm86 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:01 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:21 pm
I think this is more conjecture than anything else, but still interesting.

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-te ... a/4848120/
Motorsport.com obtained the phonometric surveys carried out in qualifying at Silverstone: the power measurements showed surprising data. The full boost Mercedes power unit was the only one to increase horsepower compared to last year. Honda pays a gap of 28 hp, Renault pays a 37 hp, while Ferrari is last with a gap of 42 hp.
The power unit of Lewis Hamilton squeezed in Q3 showed 1,022 horses, while that of Valtteri Bottas stopped at 1,020 horses. A nothing that does not justify the gap of three tenths that the ex-champion has inflicted on the good Finnish, but which explains the impressive difference with all the others who, at least in the dry lap, just don't exist.
How do they even calculate HP from videos??
Doesn't it take a lot of different factors like drag etc to even get a somewhat precise estimate??
If we think of the complexity of today’s PUs, it seems nothing more than adventurous to give exact numbers like for example 1022 hp for Lewis and 1020 hp for Bottas by phonometric analysis.

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El Scorchio
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Re: Mercedes W11

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:21 pm
I think this is more conjecture than anything else, but still interesting.

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-te ... a/4848120/
Motorsport.com obtained the phonometric surveys carried out in qualifying at Silverstone: the power measurements showed surprising data. The full boost Mercedes power unit was the only one to increase horsepower compared to last year. Honda pays a gap of 28 hp, Renault pays a 37 hp, while Ferrari is last with a gap of 42 hp.
The power unit of Lewis Hamilton squeezed in Q3 showed 1,022 horses, while that of Valtteri Bottas stopped at 1,020 horses. A nothing that does not justify the gap of three tenths that the ex-champion has inflicted on the good Finnish, but which explains the impressive difference with all the others who, at least in the dry lap, just don't exist.
Lewis has 2 extra horsepower available to him than Bottas does? Looks like all those conspiracy theories are correct after all... :lol:

dans79
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Holm86 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:01 pm
How do they even calculate HP from videos??
Doesn't it take a lot of different factors like drag etc to even get a somewhat precise estimate??
I believe what they are referring to is the use of audio analisis and gps data to estimate power. it's probably about as accurate as spitballing....

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Mudflap
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Re: Mercedes W11

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I am pretty sure a similar analysis said Renault had 10 hp or so on Honda earlier in the season. They go to extreme lengths to generate random numbers..
How much TQ does it make though?

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RZS10
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Hoffman900
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Re: Mercedes W11

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I think dyno engineers would be happy with a .2% variance.

Mudflap's comment made me :lol: