[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[Hoffman900]

How did you guys come to the conclusion the mercs are cheating/ burning oil?

Like 90% (I pulled this figure out of thin air, but it's a lot) of the claims / information on here, it's all speculation.

It sure is fun to discuss and debate, but none of the claims can be verified.

[Wouter]

How did you guys come to the conclusion the mercs are cheating/ burning oil?

This is nice to read. Which doesn't say they are cheating.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29310&p=918599#p918599

[etusch]

How did you guys come to the conclusion the mercs are cheating/ burning oil?

Like 90% (I pulled this figure out of thin air, but it's a lot) of the claims / information on here, it's all speculation.

in fact nobody has any proof about Ferrari even this season.

[etusch]

How did you guys come to the conclusion the mercs are cheating/ burning oil?

This is nice to read. Which doesn't say they are cheating.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29310&p=918599#p918599

Good comment.
When I say cheating I just talking about any thing burned intentionally but gasoline and even gasoline if it exceed limitation.

[holeindalip]

How did you guys come to the conclusion the mercs are cheating/ burning oil?

This is nice to read. Which doesn't say they are cheating.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29310&p=918599#p918599

I can agree with that, this new rule is going to kill the races though, going to be a lot more fuel saving and no overtake button so there will be way less passing.

I still Mercedes had the target to Ferrari from 2019 and fixed the cooling issues+ upgrades, there’s been no proof that Mercedes were ever in the oil burning conversation, Ferrari were the ones with a whole secondary oil tank... and it’s hard to say with Red Bull, if/when they get the chassis sorted if it’s all motor or chassis they are lacking, Hungary is way less power sensitive than most tracks and th mercs were still ahead by a margin. Do you think if they didn’t have their (party mode) they wouldn’t have been on pole by a big margin?

[Hoffman900]

Get rid of the "party" mode and you lose Lando's charge in the first race.

The more the FIA tries to legislate, the more they muck it up. I know they think it's below them, but there are a lot of lessons to be learned for the FIA from NASCAR.

[Sieper]

Yes, Mercedes were turned down last year for their cooling issues, and now this year that is fixed so they are at full power, coupled with upgrades over the winter and new fuel you have a double whammy. Mercedes had the target of Ferrari power they were trying to hit, and the technical directives hit Honda and Ferrari. If you look at the speeds the gap to the midfield stayed the same meaning they took a step of what they normally take, just red bull and Ferrari were nowhere at the start of the season.

There’s no reason to suspect the td’s just hit Honda and Ferrari harder than the mercs...


The puffs of smoke are from overfilling the oil tanks that’s why it’s only at the start of a session or race.

That is not what Toto said. Toto said, we don’t know.

Overfilling an oil tank. In modern F1 car where everything is know. Not a chance that is the cause of the puffs.

What I think. You have an allowance of 0,3 liter oil per 100km. Put an anti knock additive in the oil and use the excess oil you are allowed to burn off at moments you increase the turbo pressure. That way knock is prevented at the moments it really counts. Qualy laps when accelerating out of corners and first laps of the race to open DRS and pit window.

It’s in the merc engine thread, they’ve closed all the oil burning tricks.

They will when the allowance is zero, or say 0,05l per 100km. When RBR was running renault engines that what was stated is the real usage.

I think that is what the qualy mode ban is about, there is still a relatively high allowance but this was so called Needed as engines use that. Well, then don’t use the most of it in qualy. Now they can’t anymore (if that rule really comes). As the mode used in qualy must be run the whole race. Then your oil would run out in lap 6 or so.

[dans79]

The more the FIA tries to legislate, the more they muck it up. I know they think it's below them, but there are a lot of lessons to be learned for the FIA from NASCAR.

The biggest lesson being get their ego out of the way and just let them race.

[etusch]

How did you guys come to the conclusion the mercs are cheating/ burning oil?

This is nice to read. Which doesn't say they are cheating.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29310&p=918599#p918599

I can agree with that, this new rule is going to kill the races though, going to be a lot more fuel saving and no overtake button so there will be way less passing.

I still Mercedes had the target to Ferrari from 2019 and fixed the cooling issues+ upgrades, there’s been no proof that Mercedes were ever in the oil burning conversation, Ferrari were the ones with a whole secondary oil tank... and it’s hard to say with Red Bull, if/when they get the chassis sorted if it’s all motor or chassis they are lacking, Hungary is way less power sensitive than most tracks and th mercs were still ahead by a margin. Do you think if they didn’t have their (party mode) they wouldn’t have been on pole by a big margin?

do you have proof Mercedes are not doing anything illegal?
You say that they aimed Ferrari's performance last year and of course they achieved it, right? They are so succesful that they achieve everything, they just need to aim it for success.
What do you think about that Mercedes were aiming a power which comes from illegality, burning more fuel tham allowed. But you say that merc achieved it in the legal way? How Mercedes is doing it?
In fact they had a rear suspension they need to rebuilt because of illegality. it was visible something. But das is not all visible and pu is completely closed. First thing shows what they are and make us very suspicious about hiden parts.
In the other hand Fia's approach to Ferrari thing is very encouraging who want to do their own version.

[Moore77]

This is nice to read. Which doesn't say they are cheating.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29310&p=918599#p918599

I can agree with that, this new rule is going to kill the races though, going to be a lot more fuel saving and no overtake button so there will be way less passing.

I still Mercedes had the target to Ferrari from 2019 and fixed the cooling issues+ upgrades, there’s been no proof that Mercedes were ever in the oil burning conversation, Ferrari were the ones with a whole secondary oil tank... and it’s hard to say with Red Bull, if/when they get the chassis sorted if it’s all motor or chassis they are lacking, Hungary is way less power sensitive than most tracks and th mercs were still ahead by a margin. Do you think if they didn’t have their (party mode) they wouldn’t have been on pole by a big margin?

do you have proof Mercedes are not doing anything illegal? Proof is needed to prove something that is illegal.
You say that they aimed Ferrari's performance last year and of course they achieved it, right? They are so succesful that they achieve everything, they just need to aim it for success. Just like Honda aimed for Mercedes' level of performance and achieved it, until last year. Did they achieve it illegally? Everyone says Mercedes was/is burning oil. So Honda must have achieved it illegally too. Right?
What do you think about that Mercedes were aiming a power which comes from illegality, burning more fuel tham allowed. But you say that merc achieved it in the legal way? How Mercedes is doing it? Nobody knows how Mercedes is doing. Certainly no one can say Merc is doing it illegally, unless one has proof.
In fact they had a rear suspension they need to rebuilt because of illegality. it was visible something. But das is not all visible and pu is completely closed. First thing shows what they are and make us very suspicious about hiden parts.Red Bull also had the same kind of Rear Suspension that needed to be removed! Ferrari had brought that to FIA.
In the other hand Fia's approach to Ferrari thing is very encouraging who want to do their own version.

My comments in bold.

[etusch]

1 - Just like Honda aimed for Mercedes' level of performance and achieved it, until last year. Did they achieve it illegally? Everyone says Mercedes was/is burning oil.
2 - Nobody knows how Mercedes is doing. Certainly no one can say Merc is doing it illegally, unless one has proof.

1 Honda never achieved their Q performance and we don't expect they can reach merc's this year's performance in near future. If they can achieve it eveybody can start to question it. Aiming an illegal level and ahieving it is different.
2 That comment just says you can't talk about illegality unless you have proof. And it starts by saying nobody knows it. poetic. But why we didn't applied this for Ferrari ?

[dans79]

I think that is what the qualy mode ban is about, there is still a relatively high allowance but this was so called Needed as engines use that. Well, then don’t use the most of it in qualy. Now they can’t anymore (if that rule really comes). As the mode used in qualy must be run the whole race. Then your oil would run out in lap 6 or so.

Come on Sieper, I thought you were better than this.

The qually modes all the teams are using are about maximum energy deployment (running the ES down to almost zero), running as lean as they can to extend maximum rpm, most aggressive timing then can get away with, etc etc. They are basically running the PU in a way that they know is detrimental to its longevity, but yields increased performance for short periods of time.

[Moore77]

1 - Just like Honda aimed for Mercedes' level of performance and achieved it, until last year. Did they achieve it illegally? Everyone says Mercedes was/is burning oil.
2 - Nobody knows how Mercedes is doing. Certainly no one can say Merc is doing it illegally, unless one has proof.

1 Honda never achieved their Q performance and we don't expect they can reach merc's this year's performance in near future. If they can achieve it eveybody can start to question it. Aiming an illegal level and ahieving it is different. How did Honda go from being the worst PU on the grid to second best? Isn't that questionable?
When Mercedes came with a PU in 2014, they had no reference, still they came with the best PU. That isn't difficult for a team that has already done it. To say, they MUST have achieved it illegally, is immature, at least until proven.
2 That comment just says you can't talk about illegality unless you have proof. And it starts by saying nobody knows it. poetic. But why we didn't applied this for Ferrari ? Duh. Innocent, unless proven guilty. To prove someone guilty, you need proof. Natural law. If someone has a proof, they should produce it. Simply accusing it, doesn't make them guilty.

Comments in bold.

[1158]

A good compromise with this would be to make the teams run the mode they qualify with for the first stint of the race. Then allow them any changes they want once the car has stopped in the box. Also allow any changes of mode if the race starts on wets/inters from the start. In my mind, once the car arrives in the box, parc ferme is broken. Adjustments can be made to wings/brake cooling, why should engine modes be any different. Of course this doesn't address the issue of the FIA not being able to monitor that the PU is operating legally during the entire race, so I guess that doesn't address the main concern of the FIA, if that is really their concern.

I still don't see this helping out RB much. Merc has the edge. This only helps Ferrari.

As for Honda's improvement, that's only naturally given their late start. If you are going to say Honda's improvement is due to illegal things, then I guess Renault is doing some illegal stuff too. They have improved, especially their Q mode...

[Sieper]

I think that is what the qualy mode ban is about, there is still a relatively high allowance but this was so called Needed as engines use that. Well, then don’t use the most of it in qualy. Now they can’t anymore (if that rule really comes). As the mode used in qualy must be run the whole race. Then your oil would run out in lap 6 or so.

Come on Sieper, I thought you were better than this.

The qually modes all the teams are using are about maximum energy deployment (running the ES down to almost zero), running as lean as they can to extend maximum rpm, most aggressive timing then can get away with, etc etc. They are basically running the PU in a way that they know is detrimental to its longevity, but yields increased performance for short periods of time.

But that is where you can use the oil for, I think I have written that a few posts ago? If you somehow put some anti knock additives in the oil you can use that to up the turbo compression on your engine and still don’t get too much knock (indeed killing its live) during the time you burn the extra oil off. Mercedes must be doing something differently then f.e. Honda as they gain so much more time in Q3. If you can prevent knock better over a short time that would be an ideal way to allow for such a jump in power. Something is up, why else is FIA now coming with this rule. If it comes. Why now? High power mode has been there since 2014.

By the way, I do like to fantasize (if you will) about possibilities, for me that is part of the fun of the sport. I am NOT saying mercedes are a bunch of cheaters. It is just clear, since Ferrari did not get punished, it is very attractive for ALL teams to think outside of the rules.