2020 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, August 28 - 30

[Mchamilton]

In the part "he and Albon" are not where "me and Valteri" are... He forgot that actually RedBull and Honda aint "where" Mercedes is jet.

I think you heard him wrong, probably chose to hear him wrong to give yourself something to hate about.

Typicall answer. How can you hear it wrong?Maybe he didnt mean it that way, but he said so. It would not be the first time he spoke too fast and had to apologise later.

I've just watched it again. It pretty damn obvious what he says and what he means.
'they have a great car, and max is doing a great job with it. But unfortunately both drivers arent there, like me and valterri are there'

If you can read or hear that that in any way other than that Max is there but Alex isn't. Then God knows what else you hear wrong and completely out of context.

[erudite450]

He’s doing a good job but he would never stand a chance, as would just about anyone else in the field

Alonso was available for both 2019 & 2020 and already showed competent performance against Hamilton previously...

I think Ricciardo would be in the mix too, who likewise was available for 2019 but similarly rejected by Mercedes-Benz despite apparent competence in Formula One driving.

Both drivers seem more than qualified yet were rejected for the vacant Mercedes-Benz position which went to Bottas both times -- most baffling!

The only fair comparison we have between Bottas and Ricciardo is their season together in 2008 Formula Renault 2.0 Eurocup and it might surprise you to know that Valtteri beat Daniel to the championship. There's absolutely nothing else other than your gut feeling that makes you think Ricciardo is quicker than Bottas and I'd rather not go with your gut feeling.

[Moore77]

The Hamilton interview I mentioned earlier, he was being candid yes but shouldn't be making those comments IMO.

He's stating the obvious isn't he ?

Untill Red Bull can get both cars right up behind the Merc's they can't apply any real pressure, Max can't do this on his own, Red Bull are always outnumbered, simple as.

Red Bull are currently in the Honda MotoGP ally. Just like Marquez, no one else can bring them results. They don't want to build a car like Mercedes do, which is build the car that simply works for any driver and not bias it to the needs of one driver. Last year's Mercedes had an induced under steer to treat the rear tyres, which wasn't particularly helping Hamilton in qualifying as he likes oversteery cars to throw in the corners. The designers and engineers need to have a strong sense of what is the right direction to go, instead of being lead by a driver. It's the same mistake that Ferrari does by building car to one driver and the other one with a contrasting style suffers badly. It's not like Albon is a bad driver, it's just that the car is quite far designed to suit one driver's preference and it doesn't respond to his needs. Same thing happened to Gasly and he seems to be in happy space with that Alpha Tauri.

Similar thing happened to Jorge Lorenzo when he boarded that Honda bike.

Strong drivers like Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton and Max can quickly get adjusted to any car. So it's fundamental for the designers and engineers to listen more to the other driver to understand the draw backs of the car and build it right. Unless that happens, Ferrari and Red Bull will always be one car team and suffer in fight against a strong two car team!

[nevill3]

Albon suffered this week due to putting on the wrong tyre, when asked about it Horner said that if you don't try something different you just get the same so they deliberately gave Albon a sub optimal strategy despite him having a new set of hard tyres available.

[proteus]

I think you heard him wrong, probably chose to hear him wrong to give yourself something to hate about.

Typicall answer. How can you hear it wrong?Maybe he didnt mean it that way, but he said so. It would not be the first time he spoke too fast and had to apologise later.

I've just watched it again. It pretty damn obvious what he says and what he means.
'they have a great car, and max is doing a great job with it. But unfortunately both drivers arent there, like me and valterri are there'

If you can read or hear that that in any way other than that Max is there but Alex isn't. Then God knows what else you hear wrong and completely out of context.

I have commented his whole statement. Since english is not my national language, i might be wrong and since i am not british, i do not know how brits are expressing. But his statement was contradictive nonetheless. He likes to act overdramatic during races and after. What bothered me was when he said they aint there, but what he should say is that RedBull is not there jet. We all know Max would make him run for his money in the same car.

[El Scorchio]

The Hamilton interview I mentioned earlier, he was being candid yes but shouldn't be making those comments IMO.

He's stating the obvious isn't he ?

Untill Red Bull can get both cars right up behind the Merc's they can't apply any real pressure, Max can't do this on his own, Red Bull are always outnumbered, simple as.

Red Bull are currently in the Honda MotoGP ally. Just like Marquez, no one else can bring them results. They don't want to build a car like Mercedes do, which is build the car that simply works for any driver and not bias it to the needs of one driver. Last year's Mercedes had an induced under steer to treat the rear tyres, which wasn't particularly helping Hamilton in qualifying as he likes oversteery cars to throw in the corners. The designers and engineers need to have a strong sense of what is the right direction to go, instead of being lead by a driver. It's the same mistake that Ferrari does by building car to one driver and the other one with a contrasting style suffers badly. It's not like Albon is a bad driver, it's just that the car is quite far designed to suit one driver's preference and it doesn't respond to his needs. Same thing happened to Gasly and he seems to be in happy space with that Alpha Tauri.

Similar thing happened to Jorge Lorenzo when he boarded that Honda bike.

Strong drivers like Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton and Max can quickly get adjusted to any car. So it's fundamental for the designers and engineers to listen more to the other driver to understand the draw backs of the car and build it right. Unless that happens, Ferrari and Red Bull will always be one car team and suffer in fight against a strong two car team!

Yup. This is their problem. They need to focus on and take into account the needs of both drivers rather than just one of them. If they continue to build cars just to suit how Max likes to drive them no team mate is going to be able to help him out. It seems clear to me as you say that neither Albon or Gasly is able to drive to their potential in that car. You only have to look at comparative results in the AT cars to realise that.

[Mclarensenna]

He’s doing a good job but he would never stand a chance, as would just about anyone else in the field

Alonso was available for both 2019 & 2020 and already showed competent performance against Hamilton previously...

I think Ricciardo would be in the mix too, who likewise was available for 2019 but similarly rejected by Mercedes-Benz despite apparent competence in Formula One driving.

Both drivers seem more than qualified yet were rejected for the vacant Mercedes-Benz position which went to Bottas both times -- most baffling!

The only fair comparison we have between Bottas and Ricciardo is their season together in 2008 Formula Renault 2.0 Eurocup and it might surprise you to know that Valtteri beat Daniel to the championship. There's absolutely nothing else other than your gut feeling that makes you think Ricciardo is quicker than Bottas and I'd rather not go with your gut feeling.

Fair comparison when they are both in different racing teams?
2008, Bottas 139 Ric 136 points Bottas 5 wins, Ric 6 wins that season. Both in different teams though so how can that be a fair comparison?

Diresta and Vettel raced in the exact same team in 2006 formula 3.
That is a fair comparison as the cars are identical and Diresta got 86 points to Vettels 75. Diresta 5 wins to 4

Why not say Kimi is 100 times faster than Alonso as yes Alonso beat Kimi in the same team in 2014
but it seems that is not fair to you.
Fair to you seems comparing drivers in completely different teams
So sure Kimi is better as he picked up a wopping 27 podiums to Alonso's 0 from 2015-2018

[Just_a_fan]

Yup. This is their problem. They need to focus on and take into account the needs of both drivers rather than just one of them. If they continue to build cars just to suit how Max likes to drive them no team mate is going to be able to help him out. It seems clear to me as you say that neither Albon or Gasly is able to drive to their potential in that car. You only have to look at comparative results in the AT cars to realise that.

The problem for them this year is that in testing the car looked to be up there with the W11. The team, well Marko, stated that they wanted to make Max the youngest WDC in history. So they have focused on that one goal, believing the car was good enough. Seems that they misinterpreted their pace relative to Mercedes. Now, of course, having set off down the road of focusing on Max, believing the car was good enough for him to fight Hamilton race after race, they've put themselves in a position where their second driver can't help Max.

That's the donwside with focusing the team on one driver. If that driver needs help, it's much more difficult for the other car to be able to help him.

[214270]

Yup. This is their problem. They need to focus on and take into account the needs of both drivers rather than just one of them. If they continue to build cars just to suit how Max likes to drive them no team mate is going to be able to help him out. It seems clear to me as you say that neither Albon or Gasly is able to drive to their potential in that car. You only have to look at comparative results in the AT cars to realise that.

The problem for them this year is that in testing the car looked to be up there with the W11. The team, well Marko, stated that they wanted to make Max the youngest WDC in history. So they have focused on that one goal, believing the car was good enough. Seems that they misinterpreted their pace relative to Mercedes. Now, of course, having set off down the road of focusing on Max, believing the car was good enough for him to fight Hamilton race after race, they've put themselves in a position where their second driver can't help Max.

That's the donwside with focusing the team on one driver. If that driver needs help, it's much more difficult for the other car to be able to help him.

Maybe, or maybe ALB is just not fast enough. Consider this...

Now that the overheating problems SAI has been suffering from are sorted and he’s able to run the same spec of bodywork as NOR he’s clearly second to SAI, both on Saturdays and let’s be honest he’s not even close on Sundays. His best results this season are because he’s lucked into a result because of mayhem ahead. NOR is struggling to beat SAI.

SAI was beaten by HULK
HULK was beaten by RIC
and VER had the beating of RIC in their last year together.

That’s potentially how far down the order NOR is. Now researching their F2 championship it’s obvious that ALB, NOR and RUS for that matter are pretty much interchangeable. One maybe a bit bet in quali, one is a better racer, one is better with his engineers, one is a better character etc. They’re all basically the same. So substituting ALB for NOR tells you how far down he may be relative to VER in raw speed. No real puzzle to solve.

Edit: This also explains RUSs pace relative to the upper echelon F1 talent and maybe why Merc aren’t so hot on him joining the big team. He needs to be tested by placing him in a middling team. Calls to promote him in BOTs stead are nuts.

[siskue2005]

Albon suffered this week due to putting on the wrong tyre, when asked about it Horner said that if you don't try something different you just get the same so they deliberately gave Albon a sub optimal strategy despite him having a new set of hard tyres available.

No, that was after the safety car

What was he doing to be 11 seconds behind Max in just 10 laps, with both have relatively same clear air in front of them?

[Big Tea]

Yup. This is their problem. They need to focus on and take into account the needs of both drivers rather than just one of them. If they continue to build cars just to suit how Max likes to drive them no team mate is going to be able to help him out. It seems clear to me as you say that neither Albon or Gasly is able to drive to their potential in that car. You only have to look at comparative results in the AT cars to realise that.

The problem for them this year is that in testing the car looked to be up there with the W11. The team, well Marko, stated that they wanted to make Max the youngest WDC in history. So they have focused on that one goal, believing the car was good enough. Seems that they misinterpreted their pace relative to Mercedes. Now, of course, having set off down the road of focusing on Max, believing the car was good enough for him to fight Hamilton race after race, they've put themselves in a position where their second driver can't help Max.

That's the donwside with focusing the team on one driver. If that driver needs help, it's much more difficult for the other car to be able to help him.

Good point there, this may be a large part of the problem. As we have seen with other teams, feeling they should be winning and gearing everything toward this means they are not (necessarily)following the best development path.

Mclaren seemed to have the same mind set for a while where they thought they were entitled to be at the front and tried all sorts of 'get quick fast' schemes, which only disrupted the normal process of building a good car. Thankfully Mclaren saw what was happening and turned the corner last year (excuse unintentional pun) Williams took a long time to realise this and still have not caught up.

All the effort putting one driver artificially high takes the foundations out and actually slows development.

[henry]

The weight is not the problem, it’s the energy that goes trough the tires, which is mostly downforce.

The immense power doesn’t help either. Those extra 200kg are peanuts.

For Silverstone I did a rough calculation for the left front at Copse in qualifying. Weight 760kg, approach speed 310kph

Vertical load 7000N
Transverse load 11500N

If I substitute a weight from 2005, 615kg

Vertical load 5800N 82%
Transverse load 9300N 80%

The downforce required goes down at roughly the rate the weight does.

If I also substitute A representative speed from 2005, 250kph

Vertical load 3800N 53%
Transverse load. 6000N 52%

So most of the increased duty comes from the downforce which has increased more than the weight, hence the increased cornering forces.

Since this is a Spa thread. The two Pouhon corners are similar to copse but taken a little slower.

[Juzh]

Great men stand out by themself. They dont need to seek for attention.

The way how you dislike and handle an opinion that doesnt suit yours, is prooving my point.

In show business that's what you have to do. It is a bit cringey sometimes but it has worked very well for him.
If you do not follow his instagram yet, chek out all the celebrity replies he gets to his posts. At first it was a bunch of C- list celebrities but he has worked his way up the ladder. I would say he rubs elbows with B-listers now.

stop the drooling please. thanks

[grubschumi13]

[/quote}
In any event, Italian GP last year you could argue HAM was sacrificed in order to secure the top step for BOT. If I remember correctly HAM pitted to undercut LEC, pitted onto a tyre that would’ve struggled to get to the end & was asked to pressure LEC the whole stint. BOT took over after HAM spent his tyres chasing, pitted, and on fresher rubber due to an offset strategy BOT still couldn’t chase down and make a pass for the win.
[/quote]

Look again at the Monza 2019. I remember Hamilton locking up into turn one going off into the run off area and Bottas passing him. It was not a team order to let Bottas pass.

[dans79]

They only need to give him a real fair chance rather than talk of no number 2 when it is a clear as the Schumacher and Barrichello dynamic. We have seen it time and time again. Tell me one occasion of all the times Mercedes have issued team orders e.g. instructed one driver to let the other pass, or an instruction to hold station and don't attack your team mate or an instruction to slow down so as not to pass their team mate that favored Bottas? There has not been even one. Even Hamilton himself knows this, in Baku 2017 implored the team to give Bottas the instruction to slow in Baku to help him out in his fight with Vettel.

Have you ever heard Bottas ask anything like that from the team? I don't think anyone has ever.

Firstly, in Merc you kinda have to be ahead to get preferential strategy. BOT is rarely ahead after quali and even if he’s ahead at the start on race day, HAM is very often ahead after a lap or two.

In any event, Italian GP last year you could argue HAM was sacrificed in order to secure the top step for BOT. If I remember correctly HAM pitted to undercut LEC, pitted onto a tyre that would’ve struggled to get to the end & was asked to pressure LEC the whole stint. BOT took over after HAM spent his tyres chasing, pitted, and on fresher rubber due to an offset strategy BOT still couldn’t chase down and make a pass for the win.

I stand corrected you are right, one incident. On this occasion it was a completely logical decision to make.

His biggest issue, is that he has been out of the championship early in a lot of the seasons since he joined the team.