Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Jolle
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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With hydrogen there will always be a hard limit on how much volume/weight you will have to drag along for a race distance, plus storage is either very complicated or large (possibly both). With the ongoing development in batteries and fast charging, this path has more possibilities in being a solution in the not so distant future.

Fuel cells are one of those things that keeps coming up whenever a company bets on electric power, almost like a way to say “I won’t invest in battery power because the real solution is fuel cells, so I’m sticking to my petrol engine”.

Zynerji
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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This is a bit of a broad jump, but made me think of hydrogen fuel cells while I was reading...

https://hackaday.com/2020/10/16/mutant- ... riculture/

If they can make corn that pulls nitrogen from the air, can anyone speculate on the possibility of a "bio-battery" that harnesses this "tech" to make a cell that pulls hydrogen from the air as well?

Jolle
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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Zynerji wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:32 pm
This is a bit of a broad jump, but made me think of hydrogen fuel cells while I was reading...

https://hackaday.com/2020/10/16/mutant- ... riculture/

If they can make corn that pulls nitrogen from the air, can anyone speculate on the possibility of a "bio-battery" that harnesses this "tech" to make a cell that pulls hydrogen from the air as well?
Uhm... the problem sigh hydrogen is that, in its pure form, isn’t floating in the air (not enough to harvest it like that in any way). Plants already take the hydrogen out of water (freeing the oxygen) combining it with carbon. That’s how you get bio diesel

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jjn9128
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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Jolle wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:17 pm
Uhm... the problem sigh hydrogen is that, in its pure form, isn’t floating in the air (not enough to harvest it like that in any way). Plants already take the hydrogen out of water (freeing the oxygen) combining it with carbon. That’s how you get bio diesel
It's also difficult to store - being so light it tends to escape. IMO it is not the future of automotive - Honda gave all their research away so who's actually seriously working on it!!?
#aerogandalf
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ispano6
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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jjn9128 wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:06 pm
Jolle wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:17 pm
Uhm... the problem sigh hydrogen is that, in its pure form, isn’t floating in the air (not enough to harvest it like that in any way). Plants already take the hydrogen out of water (freeing the oxygen) combining it with carbon. That’s how you get bio diesel
It's also difficult to store - being so light it tends to escape. IMO it is not the future of automotive - Honda gave all their research away so who's actually seriously working on it!!?
Gave it away to who? GM and Honda are working jointly and their patents are protected. The US government is actually preparing for the hydrogen economy and much of the civilized world is too. Sustainability is probably one of the top priorities of mankind now and with the evidence shown when manmade emissions are halted such like it was when much of the industrialized nations went into covid lock down that global air quality massively improved. It seems to have opened many people's eyes to the urgency of carbon neutrality and zero emissions. Cities powered by green and blue ammonia will charge fcev and BEV vehicles, not necessarily that the vehicle itself will lug around ammonia.

NL_Fer
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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Obviously the development of batteries is going really well. There is enough promising technology, that it almost certain that a BEv can equal petrol cars in weight, range and costs around 2030. Also the efficiency will make a BEv the primary choice.

But what if cost and efficiency is not the most important factor for a certain vehicle? What if would like to create an ultralight, high powered racer?

Also can we power our whole world with green electricity? Can battery buffered solar & wind power provide enough energy around a whole year. And if we would need nuclear power, is there enough uranium? Or can we make that Thorium MSR or Fusion reactor work.

There a technology in a very early stage of development. A technology where sunlight directly converts water to hydrogen gas. If we can ramp up the efficiency of this proces, we can solve a large problem with solar electricity. We can create hydrogen gas in the summer and store it or convert it for use in the winter, where there is not enough sunlight.

Yes batteries are great and getting even better. But they are not the ultimate energy solution.

ispano6
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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Yep true.

In July 2001, Honda R&D Company, Ltd. and U.S.-based Honda R&D Americas, Inc. opened its first solar powered hydrogen production and fueling station. The station uses an array of photovoltaic (PV) cells to extract hydrogen from water via electrolysis.
BEV too has finite rare earth resources but recycling technology too is making headway. Other technologies such as Honda's joint development of fluorine ion batteries with Nasa or sodium ion batteries hold promise for reduced dependence on rare earth metals. Biofuels will play a huge role in the future - oil and energy companies are heavily invested in algae and corn based fuels. Research into organisms that breakdown nuclear waste and materials also is underway. The future will require all of these efforts as well as the continuous replenishing of forests with mangroves to balance the carbon emissions. It's imperative that countries such as Brazil and China do their part.

Rodak
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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Hydrogen fuel cells require, obviously, hydrogen. This is typically produced from natural gas (methane) by a steam cracking process that is itself energy intensive and significantly reduces the final efficiency of the fuel cell. There has been research on a direct methane fuel cell and some advances have been made; here's a link to a recent article:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 130939.htm

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Big Tea
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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Rodak wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:21 pm
Hydrogen fuel cells require, obviously, hydrogen. This is typically produced from natural gas (methane) by a steam cracking process that is itself energy intensive and significantly reduces the final efficiency of the fuel cell. There has been research on a direct methane fuel cell and some advances have been made; here's a link to a recent article:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 130939.htm
The 'claim' here is that cracking is done during periods of excess production and stored to replace having a higher base load running.

I was reading of a plan to use old salt caves to store the gas under pressure. The gas being retrieved from underground would run a turbine just by passing through it generating energy, then burned to run generation kit on the surface.

There are all sorts of claims being scattered around.
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery

Jolle
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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A much heard criticism of electric powered cars (either on hydrogen or batteries) is that electricity isn’t free of pollution. This is true, for now. But it can be, where petrol power can not. It’s a case to make every link in the chain as clean and efficient as possible, without looking at a dirty link and take that as prove the system is faulty.

Who knows we have a giant solar field at the equator in a few years time, making hydrogen out of water to fuel powerplants around the world...

gruntguru
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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Jolle wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:40 pm
A much heard criticism of electric powered cars (either on hydrogen or batteries) is that electricity isn’t free of pollution. This is true, for now. But it can be, where petrol power can not. .
Actually bio-fuels eg bio-diesel and ethanol eliminate the CO2 emissions although not the tailpipe toxics.
je suis charlie

Jolle
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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gruntguru wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:03 am
Jolle wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:40 pm
A much heard criticism of electric powered cars (either on hydrogen or batteries) is that electricity isn’t free of pollution. This is true, for now. But it can be, where petrol power can not. .
Actually bio-fuels eg bio-diesel and ethanol eliminate the CO2 emissions although not the tailpipe toxics.
Combustion engines, one way or the other are making NO. Carbon neutral isn’t the only thing to consider.

Brake Horse Power
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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gruntguru wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:03 am
Jolle wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:40 pm
A much heard criticism of electric powered cars (either on hydrogen or batteries) is that electricity isn’t free of pollution. This is true, for now. But it can be, where petrol power can not. .
Actually bio-fuels eg bio-diesel and ethanol eliminate the CO2 emissions although not the tailpipe toxics.
Unless you run it with a fuel cell..

Jolle
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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Brake Horse Power wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:14 am
gruntguru wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:03 am
Jolle wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:40 pm
A much heard criticism of electric powered cars (either on hydrogen or batteries) is that electricity isn’t free of pollution. This is true, for now. But it can be, where petrol power can not. .
Actually bio-fuels eg bio-diesel and ethanol eliminate the CO2 emissions although not the tailpipe toxics.
Unless you run it with a fuel cell..
You there are yet no bio diesel fuel cells. I think the only way still to oxidise a carbon-hydrogen is with a bang. And that produces NOx as a byproduct.

Brake Horse Power
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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Not diesel indeed, but ethanol and methanol is possible