Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

[dans79]

I don’t think anyone denies Bottas is a wingman no? It’s just the smart thing to do. I think Merc have been a bit more gracious about it than Ferrari were with Rubens though — they don’t seem to use those team orders unless in a tight fight/title fight

Lot's of people deny it. It is a myth that Hamilton's team mates always have equal treatment and it is a drum they beat in every debate when numerous occasions can be shown this is not true.

How is it a myth? Russia example was because Lewis was fighting for the championship against Seb, Bottas was well out of it. Bottas had equal opportunity to be in the championship fight and for one reason or another he fell out of it.

Singapore was Merc trying everything to get a chance to win. If Lewis came out in front of Albon, then he could use all his fresh rubber to attack cars ahead. Is that not simple to understand?

Germany they let Bottas attack for a bit, then decided to call it off to make sure there were no accidents. There was less than 10 laps to go, and Bottas was nearly 70 points behind Vettel in the standings where as Lewis was 8pts behind Seb. Thats just common sense. Bottas still had equal opportunities.

Lewis let Valterri back through in Hungary to keep it fair,
Hamilton pushed Leclerc hard in Monza 19 to the point it wrecked his tyres, then they let Bottas have a go with his better tyres. Both Merc drivers are given equal opportunity until the team needs to start prioritising. Not like Ferrari as an example who came out and stated who was number 1 in 2019 even before the season began.

If you have 2 cars running 1-2 and the 3rd place car is faster, its not making the car in 2nd place a number 2 just because you ask your 2nd place car to hold up the 3rd place car. Its the team, in a team sport trying to maximise their results.

Switching 1-2 round near the end of a race early in the season, or near the end of the season with both cars in the running for the championship is not having equal treatment.

Bottas gets equal treatment at Mercedes. When did Lewis get upgrades that Lewis didn't? Its. even at the point at Merc where the drivers have to run the same tyre strategies to keep it eqaul.

This, is correct far to many people seem to glaze over the nuances.

In a race if one driver has a significantly better chance at winning the race, the team will favor them for that race. The only exception would be if the slower of the two drivers is significantly farther ahead in the WDC.

From this simple concept that pretty much ever team follows, we get all the previously referenced issues and many more.

[Phil]

I’ll just put it outthere.

Vettel won his 4 championships fair and square just as Hamilton & Schumacher have won their 7.

It’s the name of the game and that is what it is.

This however has zilch to do with who is the better driver or “best”.

Best at what? Getting the best from their equipment? Best at extracting the best from one lap? Dry conditions? Wet? Pirelli tires? Bridgestones? Normally aspirated engines? V6 power units? Under pressure?

Who’s to say?

I think the issue is that there are some who believe Hamilton is one of the most talented drivers F1 has seen and fully deserves the credit even if the stats have come from dominant years and some obviously dont and like to point out at the dominant Mercedes to discredit.

In the end, it all doesnt matter. The stats are what they are no matter how long people argue.

I’ll say one thing though: what makes Hamilton the talent he is, is because he is a hard worker and because he has arguably faced some of the toughest opponents as team mates. This works in his favor, not against. Because he needed to evolve as a driver to become better.

It’s at the same time the biggest weakness both Vettel and Verstappen face. They’ve both been nurtured and protected by their teams and led to believe they’ve been as good ad they can be because they’ve never been tested against better drivers in the same team as Lewis has.

IMO this will come to haunt them some day when they either get a strong new young & hungry team mate, as Vettel has when Leclerc joined or when they are in close contention for a WDC and the pressure is up there.

[i70q7m7ghw]

I don't understand why people can't grasp the concept that the best driver will normally end up in the best car... if winning in a dominant car was really so easy, surely they could just put someone different in each week? Maybe the engineers put their names in a hat and take turns winning the races. Or maybe, just maybe, to dominate with a dominant car, you also need a dominant driver. It's no different from any other critical component of a car, you could have the best chassis in the world, but if the engine is rubbish the car is not going to dominate a season. Exactly the same is true of the driver, an okay driver might win a few races, but they won't dominate.

Both Vettel and Hamilton didn't end up in the teams and cars they had to win their championships by accident, they earned their seats, and the reward was the success.

[PlatinumZealot]

I’ll just put it outthere.

Vettel won his 4 championships fair and square just as Hamilton & Schumacher have won their 7.

It’s the name of the game and that is what it is.

This however has zilch to do with who is the better driver or “best”.

Best at what? Getting the best from their equipment? Best at extracting the best from one lap? Dry conditions? Wet? Pirelli tires? Bridgestones? Normally aspirated engines? V6 power units? Under pressure?

Who’s to say?

I think the issue is that there are some who believe Hamilton is one of the most talented drivers F1 has seen and fully deserves the credit even if the stats have come from dominant years and some obviously dont and like to point out at the dominant Mercedes to discredit.

In the end, it all doesnt matter. The stats are what they are no matter how long people argue.

I’ll say one thing though: what makes Hamilton the talent he is, is because he is a hard worker and because he has arguably faced some of the toughest opponents as team mates. This works in his favor, not against. Because he needed to evolve as a driver to become better.

It’s at the same time the biggest weakness both Vettel and Verstappen face. They’ve both been nurtured and protected by their teams and led to believe they’ve been as good ad they can be because they’ve never been tested against better drivers in the same team as Lewis has.

IMO this will come to haunt them some day when they either get a strong new young & hungry team mate, as Vettel has when Leclerc joined or when they are in close contention for a WDC and the pressure is up there.

Well summed up!
Nothing to add.

When will this thread close? Near winter testing?

[grubschumi13]

I don't understand why people can't grasp the concept that the best driver will normally end up in the best car... if winning in a dominant car was really so easy, surely they could just put someone different in each week? Maybe the engineers put their names in a hat and take turns winning the races. Or maybe, just maybe, to dominate with a dominant car, you also need a dominant driver. It's no different from any other critical component of a car, you could have the best chassis in the world, but if the engine is rubbish the car is not going to dominate a season. Exactly the same is true of the driver, an okay driver might win a few races, but they won't dominate.

Both Vettel and Hamilton didn't end up in the teams and cars they had to win their championships by accident, they earned their seats, and the reward was the success.

By this logic, you admit Nico Rosberg, Jenson Button, Seb Vettel, jacques villeneuve, Hill, Webber, Bottas are all the best drivers?

[aMessageToCharlie]

I’ll just put it outthere.

Vettel won his 4 championships fair and square just as Hamilton & Schumacher have won their 7.

It’s the name of the game and that is what it is.

This however has zilch to do with who is the better driver or “best”.

Best at what? Getting the best from their equipment? Best at extracting the best from one lap? Dry conditions? Wet? Pirelli tires? Bridgestones? Normally aspirated engines? V6 power units? Under pressure?

Who’s to say?

I think the issue is that there are some who believe Hamilton is one of the most talented drivers F1 has seen and fully deserves the credit even if the stats have come from dominant years and some obviously dont and like to point out at the dominant Mercedes to discredit.

In the end, it all doesnt matter. The stats are what they are no matter how long people argue.

I’ll say one thing though: what makes Hamilton the talent he is, is because he is a hard worker and because he has arguably faced some of the toughest opponents as team mates. This works in his favor, not against. Because he needed to evolve as a driver to become better.

It’s at the same time the biggest weakness both Vettel and Verstappen face. They’ve both been nurtured and protected by their teams and led to believe they’ve been as good ad they can be because they’ve never been tested against better drivers in the same team as Lewis has.

IMO this will come to haunt them some day when they either get a strong new young & hungry team mate, as Vettel has when Leclerc joined or when they are in close contention for a WDC and the pressure is up there.

Started of as a good post but became pretty one sided in the end imho, so here's a little context from a non Fanboy pov.

Other drivers are hard workers too and while Hamilton definitely went up against some great drivers as team mates, Vettel had to face some hard opposition as well, so I don’t understand why people seem to feel the need to discredit Vettel's accomplishments and paint Hamilton as a god amongst men.

Alonso
Button
Rosberg
Bottas

vs.

Webber
Ricciardo
Räikkönen
Leclerc

Looks pretty even to me, no?

Also regarding being nurtured and protected:
Hamilton has been nurtured by Ron Dennis and Mercedes since he was a little boy, was given the privilege to start his carreer in a championship capeable top team, had full team support against Alonso and was given a rear gunner team mate at Mercedes after having lost the championship to Rosberg in 2016 so let's not lash out at Verstappen et al for not having the second coming of Schumacher/Senna in the second car. They're not making the decision on who gets the seats afaik.

Cheers.

[Shrieker]

By this logic, you admit Nico Rosberg, Jenson Button, Seb Vettel, jacques villeneuve, Hill, Webber, Bottas are all the best drivers?

None of your examples (with the exception of Seb, more on that later) dominated. Come up with a better argument.

In the example of seb, people suspected he was not the best driver out there, and both Alonso and Hamilton were more complete packages when he was doing all his winning. Part of this reasoning was the fact that he was never paired with a very strong driver, as time has proven to be correct. With Hamilton that hasn't been the case. He beat Alonso when he was a rookie. He later was paired with two other world champions and bested them as well.

[grubschumi13]

I don’t think anyone denies Bottas is a wingman no? It’s just the smart thing to do. I think Merc have been a bit more gracious about it than Ferrari were with Rubens though — they don’t seem to use those team orders unless in a tight fight/title fight

Lot's of people deny it. It is a myth that Hamilton's team mates always have equal treatment and it is a drum they beat in every debate when numerous occasions can be shown this is not true.

How is it a myth? Russia example was because Lewis was fighting for the championship against Seb, Bottas was well out of it. Bottas had equal opportunity to be in the championship fight and for one reason or another he fell out of it.

Singapore was Merc trying everything to get a chance to win. If Lewis came out in front of Albon, then he could use all his fresh rubber to attack cars ahead. Is that not simple to understand?

Germany they let Bottas attack for a bit, then decided to call it off to make sure there were no accidents. There was less than 10 laps to go, and Bottas was nearly 70 points behind Vettel in the standings where as Lewis was 8pts behind Seb. Thats just common sense. Bottas still had equal opportunities.

Lewis let Valterri back through in Hungary to keep it fair,
Hamilton pushed Leclerc hard in Monza 19 to the point it wrecked his tyres, then they let Bottas have a go with his better tyres. Both Merc drivers are given equal opportunity until the team needs to start prioritising. Not like Ferrari as an example who came out and stated who was number 1 in 2019 even before the season began.

If you have 2 cars running 1-2 and the 3rd place car is faster, its not making the car in 2nd place a number 2 just because you ask your 2nd place car to hold up the 3rd place car. Its the team, in a team sport trying to maximise their results.

Switching 1-2 round near the end of a race early in the season, or near the end of the season with both cars in the running for the championship is not having equal treatment.

Bottas gets equal treatment at Mercedes. When did Lewis get upgrades that Bottas didn't? Its even at the point at Merc where the drivers have to run the same tyre strategies to keep it eqaul.

Germany they let Bottas attack for a bit, then decided to call it off to make sure there were no accidents.

Don't lie just to save a lost argument. There was a safety car from lap 52 and Bottas pitted. They remained behind the safety car until end of lap 57 and racing resumed on lap 58 and that call was made on lap 58.

Both Merc drivers are given equal opportunity until the team needs to start prioritising. Not like Ferrari as an example who came out and stated who was number 1 in 2019 even before the season began.

Bahrain 2017 Hamilton slowed down and entering the pits and got a 5 sec penalty. Only the 2nd race of 2017 and the team ordered Bottas to let Hamilton by twice. This was only the 2nd race that season.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... gys08.html

Hamilton asking the team to slow Bottas in Baku 2017 was the 8th race of the season.

Spain 2017 was the 5th race of the season.

Hamilton letting Bottas through in Hungary 2017 was Hamilton's decision and he committed to it before the switch over.

I have given proof while you are just making excuses and conjecture.

[NathanOlder]

Lot's of people deny it. It is a myth that Hamilton's team mates always have equal treatment and it is a drum they beat in every debate when numerous occasions can be shown this is not true.

How is it a myth? Russia example was because Lewis was fighting for the championship against Seb, Bottas was well out of it. Bottas had equal opportunity to be in the championship fight and for one reason or another he fell out of it.

Singapore was Merc trying everything to get a chance to win. If Lewis came out in front of Albon, then he could use all his fresh rubber to attack cars ahead. Is that not simple to understand?

Germany they let Bottas attack for a bit, then decided to call it off to make sure there were no accidents. There was less than 10 laps to go, and Bottas was nearly 70 points behind Vettel in the standings where as Lewis was 8pts behind Seb. Thats just common sense. Bottas still had equal opportunities.

Lewis let Valterri back through in Hungary to keep it fair,
Hamilton pushed Leclerc hard in Monza 19 to the point it wrecked his tyres, then they let Bottas have a go with his better tyres. Both Merc drivers are given equal opportunity until the team needs to start prioritising. Not like Ferrari as an example who came out and stated who was number 1 in 2019 even before the season began.

If you have 2 cars running 1-2 and the 3rd place car is faster, its not making the car in 2nd place a number 2 just because you ask your 2nd place car to hold up the 3rd place car. Its the team, in a team sport trying to maximise their results.

Switching 1-2 round near the end of a race early in the season, or near the end of the season with both cars in the running for the championship is not having equal treatment.

Bottas gets equal treatment at Mercedes. When did Lewis get upgrades that Bottas didn't? Its even at the point at Merc where the drivers have to run the same tyre strategies to keep it eqaul.

Germany they let Bottas attack for a bit, then decided to call it off to make sure there were no accidents.

Don't lie just to save a lost argument. There was a safety car from lap 52 and Bottas pitted. They remained behind the safety car until end of lap 57 and racing resumed on lap 58 and that call was made on lap 58.

Both Merc drivers are given equal opportunity until the team needs to start prioritising. Not like Ferrari as an example who came out and stated who was number 1 in 2019 even before the season began.

Bahrain 2017 Hamilton slowed down and entering the pits and got a 5 sec penalty. Only the 2nd race of 2017 and the team ordered Bottas to let Hamilton by twice. This was only the 2nd race that season.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... gys08.html

Hamilton asking the team to slow Bottas in Baku 2017 was the 8th race of the season.

Spain 2017 was the 5th race of the season.

Hamilton letting Bottas through in Hungary 2017 was Hamilton's decision and he committed to it before the switch over.

I have given proof while you are just making excuses and conjecture.

No no no, you haven't given any proof of any non equal treatment. What you have given proof of is Lewis asking his team if there is anything they can do to help him out.

As an example, you say 2017 Bahrain. Both cars were behind Vettel, Bottas was unable to put any pressure on Vettel so they switched the Mercs to see if they could win. Because funnily enough, Mercedes want to win ever race they can. Bottas was orrtty slow that day. He finished way behind Lewis, and Bottas only just finished in front of Kimi. Now if they didn't switch it would mean Ham would either wreck his tyres behind Bottas or just sit there and then come under pressure from Kimi and risk losing a double podium and a shot at winning. But you cant see that obviously.

[Kingshark]

I don't understand why people can't grasp the concept that the best driver will normally end up in the best car... if winning in a dominant car was really so easy, surely they could just put someone different in each week? Maybe the engineers put their names in a hat and take turns winning the races. Or maybe, just maybe, to dominate with a dominant car, you also need a dominant driver. It's no different from any other critical component of a car, you could have the best chassis in the world, but if the engine is rubbish the car is not going to dominate a season. Exactly the same is true of the driver, an okay driver might win a few races, but they won't dominate.

Because this concept is a complete myth.

Verstappen, Alonso and Ricciardo have all been locked out of any seriously competitive machinery for the entire hybrid era. Meanwhile you have a mediocre driver like Bottas spending 5 years in title winning machinery.

Whether you end up in the best car or not is enormously dependent on luck. Formula 1 is more dependent on luck than any other sport I can think of.

This makes it very difficult for me to put Hamilton anywhere near the same level as Federer and other true sporting greats who competed against their opponents on a level playing field.

[El Scorchio]

I don't understand why people can't grasp the concept that the best driver will normally end up in the best car... if winning in a dominant car was really so easy, surely they could just put someone different in each week? Maybe the engineers put their names in a hat and take turns winning the races. Or maybe, just maybe, to dominate with a dominant car, you also need a dominant driver. It's no different from any other critical component of a car, you could have the best chassis in the world, but if the engine is rubbish the car is not going to dominate a season. Exactly the same is true of the driver, an okay driver might win a few races, but they won't dominate.

Because this concept is a complete myth.

Verstappen, Alonso and Ricciardo have all been locked out of any seriously competitive machinery for the entire hybrid era. Meanwhile you have a mediocre driver like Bottas spending 5 years in title winning machinery.

Whether you end up in the best car or not is enormously dependent on luck. Formula 1 is more dependent on luck than any other sport I can think of.

This makes it very difficult for me to put Hamilton anywhere near the same level as Federer and other true sporting greats who competed against their opponents on a level playing field.

Then it’s the same for Schumacher and Vettel and basically any other world champion isn’t it. All in the best car as the champion almost always is. So it’s utterly stupid to use it just as a stick to beat Hamilton with and no-one else.

In fact maybe the only time you can argue in the last 30+ years the championship winning driver wasn’t in the best car was probably 2008.

[dans79]

Verstappen, Alonso and Ricciardo have all been locked out of any seriously competitive machinery for the entire hybrid era. Meanwhile you have a mediocre driver like Bottas spending 5 years in title winning machinery.

You don't put two roosters in the hen house as the saying goes.

• Verstappen had his chance at a Merc seat, but he was in to much of a rush to get to F1.
• Alonso not being in a Merc, is his because of his continued bad choises.
• Ricciardo should have never left redbull, as that has only hurt his profile.

[Kingshark]

Verstappen, Alonso and Ricciardo have all been locked out of any seriously competitive machinery for the entire hybrid era. Meanwhile you have a mediocre driver like Bottas spending 5 years in title winning machinery.

You don't put two roosters in the hen house as the saying goes.

• Verstappen had his chance at a Merc seat, but he was in to much of a rush to get to F1.
• Alonso not being in a Merc, is his because of his continued bad choises.
• Ricciardo should have never left redbull, as that has only hurt his profile.

This begs the question: why should I praise Hamilton’s achievements if his 3 most talented opponents in the hybrid era have all been stuck with cars and engines incapable of competing with Mercedes?

Hamilton’s main opponents in the hybrid era:

2014-2016: Rosberg - a good driver but not a great driver
2017-2018: Vettel - never truly adapted to the V6 turbo engines, easily beaten by Ricciardo and Leclerc
2019-2020: Bottas - LMAO

Alonso, Verstappen, Ricciardo = all stuck in inferior cars powered by inferior engines

I will always use the very low and mediocre competition from 2014-2021 as an argument against Hamilton’s greatness, it’s too obvious to ignore. The lack of competition at the top in this era has been truly shocking and at an all-time low.

[grubschumi13]

How is it a myth? Russia example was because Lewis was fighting for the championship against Seb, Bottas was well out of it. Bottas had equal opportunity to be in the championship fight and for one reason or another he fell out of it.

Singapore was Merc trying everything to get a chance to win. If Lewis came out in front of Albon, then he could use all his fresh rubber to attack cars ahead. Is that not simple to understand?

Germany they let Bottas attack for a bit, then decided to call it off to make sure there were no accidents. There was less than 10 laps to go, and Bottas was nearly 70 points behind Vettel in the standings where as Lewis was 8pts behind Seb. Thats just common sense. Bottas still had equal opportunities.

Lewis let Valterri back through in Hungary to keep it fair,
Hamilton pushed Leclerc hard in Monza 19 to the point it wrecked his tyres, then they let Bottas have a go with his better tyres. Both Merc drivers are given equal opportunity until the team needs to start prioritising. Not like Ferrari as an example who came out and stated who was number 1 in 2019 even before the season began.

If you have 2 cars running 1-2 and the 3rd place car is faster, its not making the car in 2nd place a number 2 just because you ask your 2nd place car to hold up the 3rd place car. Its the team, in a team sport trying to maximise their results.

Switching 1-2 round near the end of a race early in the season, or near the end of the season with both cars in the running for the championship is not having equal treatment.

Bottas gets equal treatment at Mercedes. When did Lewis get upgrades that Bottas didn't? Its even at the point at Merc where the drivers have to run the same tyre strategies to keep it eqaul.

Germany they let Bottas attack for a bit, then decided to call it off to make sure there were no accidents.

Don't lie just to save a lost argument. There was a safety car from lap 52 and Bottas pitted. They remained behind the safety car until end of lap 57 and racing resumed on lap 58 and that call was made on lap 58.

Both Merc drivers are given equal opportunity until the team needs to start prioritising. Not like Ferrari as an example who came out and stated who was number 1 in 2019 even before the season began.

Bahrain 2017 Hamilton slowed down and entering the pits and got a 5 sec penalty. Only the 2nd race of 2017 and the team ordered Bottas to let Hamilton by twice. This was only the 2nd race that season.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... gys08.html

Hamilton asking the team to slow Bottas in Baku 2017 was the 8th race of the season.

Spain 2017 was the 5th race of the season.

Hamilton letting Bottas through in Hungary 2017 was Hamilton's decision and he committed to it before the switch over.

I have given proof while you are just making excuses and conjecture.

No no no, you haven't given any proof of any non equal treatment. What you have given proof of is Lewis asking his team if there is anything they can do to help him out.

As an example, you say 2017 Bahrain. Both cars were behind Vettel, Bottas was unable to put any pressure on Vettel so they switched the Mercs to see if they could win. Because funnily enough, Mercedes want to win ever race they can. Bottas was orrtty slow that day. He finished way behind Lewis, and Bottas only just finished in front of Kimi. Now if they didn't switch it would mean Ham would either wreck his tyres behind Bottas or just sit there and then come under pressure from Kimi and risk losing a double podium and a shot at winning. But you cant see that obviously.

You are the definition of a hypocrite. Condemn Ferrari team orders and call for them to be banned and fined and yet in the same breath bend over backwards to justify Mercedes team orders.

[grubschumi13]

Verstappen, Alonso and Ricciardo have all been locked out of any seriously competitive machinery for the entire hybrid era. Meanwhile you have a mediocre driver like Bottas spending 5 years in title winning machinery.

You don't put two roosters in the hen house as the saying goes.

• Verstappen had his chance at a Merc seat, but he was in to much of a rush to get to F1.
• Alonso not being in a Merc, is his because of his continued bad choises.
• Ricciardo should have never left redbull, as that has only hurt his profile.

This begs the question: why should I praise Hamilton’s achievements if his 3 most talented opponents in the hybrid era have all been stuck with cars and engines incapable of competing with Mercedes?

Hamilton’s main opponents in the hybrid era:

2014-2016: Rosberg - a good driver but not a great driver
2017-2018: Vettel - never truly adapted to the V6 turbo engines, easily beaten by Ricciardo and Leclerc
2019-2020: Bottas - LMAO

Alonso, Verstappen, Ricciardo = all stuck in inferior cars powered by inferior engines

I will always use the very low and mediocre competition from 2014-2021 as an argument against Hamilton’s greatness, it’s too obvious to ignore. The lack of competition at the top in this era has been truly shocking and at an all-time low.

Vettel - never truly adapted to the V6 turbo engines, easily beaten by Ricciardo and Leclerc

What barometer have you used to measure this claim? Being beaten by his team mate, unable to win the WDC?


Vettel has 14 wins in the hybrid era that puts him with 3rd most wins.
He is the only other driver other non Mercedes works driver to lead the world championship in the this era.

If you say he has not adapted to the hybrid era, then no other driver has except only 3 drivers all are Mercedes works drivers.

To be fair Mercedes have built such a Juggernaut every season, spend the most money that if you are not in the works team you are not in the title fight. 5 of the 7 WDC have been a private Mercedes competition.