2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Big Tea
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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velizare wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:41 pm
Zynerji wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:02 am
Kingshark wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:10 am
The manufacturers have far too much power in Formula 1

I would far rather have a dictatorship who’s sole interest is what is best for the sport instead of all these teams pushing their own political agendas.
I miss Bernie as well! 😏😏😏
i do not. bernie was indeed a dictator-like, but he had no clue, what impact will result any changes he forced to the grid. he's stuck in the '80-'90.
No doubt about it, Bernie made F1. But remember his job was to make money for F1. He said several times he did not like the way F1 was going, but he had his job to do.

I do feel he strung it out by maybe 5 years too long to retire though
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.

Alexf1
Alexf1
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Wouter wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:45 pm
the EDGE wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:18 pm
Wouter wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:10 pm

.
I don't think this is quite right.
RB wants an engine freeze from the start of the 2022 season,
so that everyone can improve the engine considerably during the winter break.
Renault only wants this after the end of the 2022 season.
This is what I read last.
.
I don’t think so, Honda leave at the end of this year. They are not developing the engine from the start of this season

This is RB want to freeze from the end of this year
.
The last message I read is that Honda wants to leave RB well cared for, they now have the entire season to work on the 2022 engine, as no upgrade is allowed during this season. All those upgrades will then be incorporated into the 2022 engine, provided the FIA agrees to the engine freeze at the start of the 2022 season. Honda wants to provide SAT and RBR with the same engines for that season and beyond.
Honda Racing will leave F1 at the end of this season, but Honda Japan is willing to supply engines afterwards.
According to the latest reports, the deal is 90% closed. They have to wait for the FIA.
According to this article there is 1 upgrade allowed during the 2021 season on ICE, TC, MGU-H and oil/fuel.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/the-full ... facturers/

I read parts of the 2022 engine would be introduced in 2021. That could also mean after the 1 allowed in-season update and the rest sold as IP.

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Alexf1 wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:49 pm
Wouter wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:45 pm
the EDGE wrote: ↑
Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:18 pm

.
I don’t think so, Honda leave at the end of this year. They are not developing the engine from the start of this season

This is RB want to freeze from the end of this year
.
The last message I read is that Honda wants to leave RB well cared for, they now have the entire season to work on the 2022 engine, as no upgrade is allowed during this season. All those upgrades will then be incorporated into the 2022 engine, provided the FIA agrees to the engine freeze at the start of the 2022 season. Honda wants to provide SAT and RBR with the same engines for that season and beyond.
Honda Racing will leave F1 at the end of this season, but Honda Japan is willing to supply engines afterwards.
According to the latest reports, the deal is 90% closed. They have to wait for the FIA.
The "1 upgrade allowed during the 2021 season on ICE, TC, MGU-H and oil / fuel" has been applied to the 2021 engine during the winter break by each manufacturer.
None of this was allowed to be upgraded in 2020, so they had to wait until the winter break to apply the 2021 upgrade.

According to this article there is 1 upgrade allowed during the 2021 season on ICE, TC, MGU-H and oil/fuel.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/the-full ... facturers/

I read parts of the 2022 engine would be introduced in 2021. That could also mean after the 1 allowed in-season update and the rest sold as IP.
The "1 upgrade allowed during the 2021 season on ICE, TC, MGU-H and oil / fuel" has been applied to the 2021 engine during the winter break by each manufacturer.
In 2020, none of that was allowed to be upgraded, so they had to wait until the winter break to apply the 2021 upgrade.

Alexf1
Alexf1
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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So unlike 2020 you could start the 2021 season with your 2020 engine and update it 1 time in-season?

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Alexf1 wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:40 pm
So unlike 2020 you could start the 2021 season with your 2020 engine and update it 1 time in-season?
Yes you can, but of course everyone would prefer to have a strong engine at the first race and not wait with the upgrade until mid-season. At least that doesn't seem sensible/wise to me.

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Red Bull closing on Honda engine deal with fresh freeze talks

Renewed discussions over an early Formula 1 engine development freeze mean Red Bull is closing on a deal to take over Honda’s engine from 2022 onwards.

The Race understands it [the negotiation process] is back on the agenda as of this week and at least two parties involved are believed to be confident a resolution is close.

The reason for the delay in getting this finalised is in its complexity. Rival manufacturers have been open to compromise and granting Red Bull the freeze it desires, but some fundamental positions clash.
.................................
Meanwhile, Red Bull and Honda’s negotiations are understood to have swiftly moved in a good direction and gained support from Honda in Japan, not just its F1 operation, early in the process.

They established what Red Bull wanted to request from Honda and by the end of 2020 it is believed both parties were largely in agreement, and awaiting news of whether the regulations would be changed.

The freeze was therefore the only factor holding up an engine takeover being formalised as it defined the details and practicalities that Red Bull and Honda would have to consider.

In addition to agreeing that Red Bull will take over part of Honda’s Milton Keynes facility, and expand its own Red Bull Technologies campus as well, it is expected that the takeover plan will include at least some Honda personnel remaining involved beyond 2021.

Yamamoto told The Race in December: β€œIt is very difficult to say suddenly goodbye in the opening race in Melbourne, in 2022, practically.
I think they will need some kind of support. I’m not sure the length, or how much. But we will support somehow.”
https://the-race.com/formula-1/red-bull ... eze-talks/

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Juzh
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Wouter wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:43 am
Alexf1 wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:40 pm
So unlike 2020 you could start the 2021 season with your 2020 engine and update it 1 time in-season?
Yes you can, but of course everyone would prefer to have a strong engine at the first race and not wait with the upgrade until mid-season. At least that doesn't seem sensible/wise to me.
So just to get this straight, there's no in-season updates allowed (provided you took new engine before season start), same as in 2020?

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Juzh wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:50 am
Wouter wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:43 am
Alexf1 wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:40 pm
So unlike 2020 you could start the 2021 season with your 2020 engine and update it 1 time in-season?
Yes you can, but of course everyone would prefer to have a strong engine at the first race and not wait with the upgrade until mid-season. At least that doesn't seem sensible/wise to me.
So just to get this straight, there's no in-season updates allowed (provided you took new engine before season start), same as in 2020?

If you upgrade the engine after the 2020 season (so during the winter break), you may not upgrade anything during the season.
If you start the season with the unchanged 2020 engine, you may upgrade a number of parts once during the 2021 season.

LM10
LM10
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Wouter wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:19 pm
Juzh wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:50 am
Wouter wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:43 am


Yes you can, but of course everyone would prefer to have a strong engine at the first race and not wait with the upgrade until mid-season. At least that doesn't seem sensible/wise to me.
So just to get this straight, there's no in-season updates allowed (provided you took new engine before season start), same as in 2020?

If you upgrade the engine after the 2020 season (so during the winter break), you may not upgrade anything during the season.
If you start the season with the unchanged 2020 engine, you may upgrade a number of parts once during the 2021 season.
Where do you have this from? Last time I checked the rules you can start the 2021 season with a totally new PU and upgrade it once throughout the season.

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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LM10 wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:08 pm
Wouter wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:19 pm
Juzh wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:50 am

So just to get this straight, there's no in-season updates allowed (provided you took new engine before season start), same as in 2020?

If you upgrade the engine after the 2020 season (so during the winter break), you may not upgrade anything during the season.
If you start the season with the unchanged 2020 engine, you may upgrade a number of parts once during the 2021 season.
.
Where do you have this from? Last time I checked the rules you can start the 2021 season with a totally new PU and upgrade it once throughout the season.


Image


Could you show me those rules please? I cannot find them. Thanks.

Zynerji
Zynerji
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Wouter wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:49 pm
LM10 wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:08 pm
Wouter wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:19 pm



If you upgrade the engine after the 2020 season (so during the winter break), you may not upgrade anything during the season.
If you start the season with the unchanged 2020 engine, you may upgrade a number of parts once during the 2021 season.
.
Where do you have this from? Last time I checked the rules you can start the 2021 season with a totally new PU and upgrade it once throughout the season.


https://cdn.the-race.com/wp-content/upl ... /image.png


Could you show me those rules please? I cannot find them. Thanks.
That looks, to me, that you declare your 2021 homologated parts, then get 1 deviation from that standard during the year. So, all-new 2021 designs, and 1 update to each part allowed (effectively allowing a Spec2).

Snorked
Snorked
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Yeah, wasn't there an announcement last June? This chart shows one change can be made after homolagation, which would be once the PU runs in the first free practice of 2021.

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Ferrari is coming with a brand new engine. Surely they'll also be allowed to 'update' the engine once mid-season.
Hell, Honda announced they'll make another fresh engine for 2022. No way that this 1 change per season means they can't introduce a new or updated engine in winter time.
The season is not started yet, they can do and come up whatever they want, as long as it's homologated.

What this IMO means, is that if you start the 2021 with a 2020 engine that is updated, and you then midseason replace it with a totally new spec engine,
then this engine does NOT allow to be updated anymore, since essentially, that new engine IS the update.

so either you keep your 2020 engine, update it in the winter, and then when the season kicks off in bahrain you can only update it once during the season, that's it.
OR, you go with a new, untested spec '2021' engine into the season, and then also only have it updated during the season.

the decision here has to do with risks.

option 1 ) a completely new engine might come at a few unexpected surprises, which 1 update will not fix.
option 2 ) using your known '20 engine might cost you some potential power compared to a new format, BUT has a more trustworthy base to work with and 1 update should be enough.

i think the compromise is what to do with 2022 over 2021.
If you introduce your eyed 2022 engine in 2021, you'll lose some in the 21 season, but gain knowledge and solid base which you can work on untill the start for the 2022 season.
if you keep your '20 engine in '21, you get a more reliable 2021 season, but will start fresh and 'more risky' when the 2022 season kicks off.

There are loopholes here clearly, and i'm sure these will be exploited: B-teams.

You keep your A-teams scot free,
and go with the B-team to take the 'development platform' route.

Both Mercedes, Ferrari and Honda have these options: Haas, Williams and AlphaTauri are their 'development platforms'.
Surely this is why Ferrari has increased their relationship with Haas (and probably dropped AlfaSauber since they perhaps said NO), and Merc with Williams.
Meanwhile, Renault is now in the 'cold' with Alpine.

both Mclaren and Aston Martin have the benefit of Mercedes' deal with Williams: Williams will be the test mule, and both AMG, AMR and MCL can get the benefit both in 2021 aswell as in 2022 from that project.

Let's put it like this: Merc, Aston and Mclaren start the season with a winter-updated 2020 spec engine which will grant them reliability.
Williams will be 'forced' to race with the 2021 spec engine, which will come with unknown variables. They'll be pushed to push that engine to the test in order to gather important data.

IF the 2021 engine is better, perhaps with what they expect from an update, in all expected areas compared to an updated 2020 engine, then Merc, Aston and Mclaren will probably go with that updated 2021 engine. as their '1 token'.

this is how i read the rules, however i might be miles and miles off.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

LM10
LM10
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Wouter wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:49 pm
LM10 wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:08 pm
Wouter wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:19 pm



If you upgrade the engine after the 2020 season (so during the winter break), you may not upgrade anything during the season.
If you start the season with the unchanged 2020 engine, you may upgrade a number of parts once during the 2021 season.
.
Where do you have this from? Last time I checked the rules you can start the 2021 season with a totally new PU and upgrade it once throughout the season.


https://cdn.the-race.com/wp-content/upl ... /image.png


Could you show me those rules please? I cannot find them. Thanks.
Unfortunately I've also not found any official ruling. What I meant by "checked the rules" was that I had read them on racefans.net back then in May.
But seems like the graph you sent is from the-race.com and it says the same like racefans. So I guess that should be correct more or less.

And how I interpret this is as follows:
New PU to start the seasons 2021, 2022 and 2023 + one in-season change to ICE, turbo and MGU-H each. As for MGU-K, CE and ES only one change each in the periods 2020-2021 and 2022-2023.

So these numbers show the amount of changes manufacturers will be permitted to make to the homologation of parts.

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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LM10 wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:10 pm
Wouter wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:49 pm
LM10 wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:08 pm

.
Where do you have this from? Last time I checked the rules you can start the 2021 season with a totally new PU and upgrade it once throughout the season.


https://cdn.the-race.com/wp-content/upl ... /image.png


Could you show me those rules please? I cannot find them. Thanks.
Unfortunately I've also not found any official ruling. What I meant by "checked the rules" was that I had read them on racefans.net back then in May.
But seems like the graph you sent is from the-race.com and it says the same like racefans. So I guess that should be correct more or less.

And how I interpret this is as follows:
New PU to start the seasons 2021, 2022 and 2023 + one in-season change to ICE, turbo and MGU-H each. As for MGU-K, CE and ES only one change each in the periods 2020-2021 and 2022-2023.

So these numbers show the amount of changes manufacturers will be permitted to make to the homologation of parts.
I am confused now, but I think you are right. ".... to make to the homologation of parts [of 2022]."