Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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Kingshark
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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Jolle wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:42 pm
Kingshark wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:26 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:44 pm
If the top bods at Mercedes or Ferrari or RBR decided Ricciardo (for example) was a better bet than what they've got, then they'd have jettisoned their incumbent driver for him. Just like what happened at Ferrari to Vettel. They aren't stupid, subjective or sentimental and going to keep a driver on out of loyalty over performance. There's a reason Hamilton has kept that drive for seven years. There's a reason RBR put all their eggs in the Verstappen basket. There's a reason Leclerc has been anointed at Ferrari.

The teams feel those particular drivers give them the best chance of success, and unfortunately for Ricciardo and a few others, they see him as slightly below that level.
Nah, that’s not even remotely close to being true.

Vettel won 4 championships on the bounce while Alonso (a superior driver) was stuck in an inferior Ferrari. The fact that Alonso was better than Vettel did not encourage Red Bull to change their driver lineup.

The fact that Hamilton is driving a Mercedes right now is zero evidence on whether he is actually the best driver on the grid. As Russell showed in Sakhir, looking good in a Mercedes is not that difficult (even without practice)

This idea that the best drivers will always end up in the best teams is a complete myth, an idealistic concept that has no basis in reality.

Having the best car in Formula 1 is mostly down to dumb luck.
Seeing this is a technical forum, formula one is who can build and race the best car. Spec series are kinda fun, but so uninteresting on a technical level for me. From the first time I watched F1 the pushing the limit on car development is so much more rewarding then the endless discussions that driver x would beat driver y in the same car.
Honest question: if all the F1 drivers were replaced by AI robots who had equal ability, so that the cars were the only thing that mattered, would you still watch F1?

I’m actually curious about your answer

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raymondu999
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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ringo wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:30 am
I can tell the new fans to f1 based on how they write about history. Those who say Hamilton need to prove himself clearly havent been watching F1 in any detail since 2007.
Hamilton is worthy of championship/s. That much I dont think anyone doubts. “His” level is not in question, I believe. But the question then is — is he the best driver every year that he has won the title? Or has he been undeserving of a title every year that he HASN’T won the title?

At the end of the day F1 is not about a pure driving competition—the cars are too wide apart for that. Hamilton in a Williams or a Haas would still not outscore Grosjean or Russell in a Merc.

Doesn’t make any stretch of dominance less boring though lol
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ringo
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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Kingshark wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:20 am

Here’s a list of drivers that had a car capable of winning the championship from 2014-2020:

- Hamilton
- Rosberg
- Bottas
- Vettel
- Raikkonen

That’s 5 drivers in 7 years.

Now compare that to 2005-2011 (also a 7 year period):

- Hamilton
- Alonso
- Schumacher
- Massa
- Raikkonen
- Button
- Barrichello
- Vettel
- Webber
- Fisichella

That’s 10 drivers in 5 years.

Only five drivers having a shot at a WDC capable car in 7 years is completely unheard of in F1 history. You can look at any other 7 year period and the competition will be far greater. That is precisely why I call 2014-2020 the zero competition era.
Reason this is so is the rules have been changing and were less restrictive.
2005 to 06. Renault dominance. narrow angle v10 of renault and other technology make it best launching car. Michellin tyres, mass dampers etc.
shot at title: alonso , shumacher. unrealistic because of #2 for fisichella and barichello. same f1 story.

2007 to 08. rule change. v8 engines and crazier aero. mclaren and ferrari. dominance. chances for alonso, raikonen, massa. Hamilton was a rookie. He shouldnt have had a chance. same F1 story.


2009. rule change. less aero. no refueling. wide simple wings. KERS. order is shaked up.
Brawn dominates. Chances: button, barichello. Redbull come good near the end to give vettel and webber a chance. Button wins 7 in a row. Same F1 story.

2010 double diffusers go crazy. redbull pick up where they left off. Dominance for Vettel and Webber. Hamilton, Button and Ferrari drivers pick off a few good performances but dont really have a chance at wdc. Same F1.

2011... same thing as 2010. But with pirrelli lotto tyres.

So in summary these times were not more competitive than now. They had the dice thrown with rule changes and the season took a little longer to settle down. 2020 was very competitive. The midfield is stronger than it has ever been.
What has happened is that Mercedes increased the gap to p2 and p3 to a very calculated and predicted level of repeatability. Hamilton's consistency exagerates the dominance. But overall F1 hasnt gotten any worse.

Shumacher dominant days to me were still more predictable. He literally smiled and waved his way to wins.
For Sure!!

Kingshark
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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ringo wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:40 am
So in summary these times were not more competitive than now. They had the dice thrown with rule changes and the season took a little longer to settle down. 2020 was very competitive. The midfield is stronger than it has ever been.
Midfield has always been competitive. The reason why people have only began to notice recently is because there is nothing happening at the front, so people focus more on the midfield because that’s the only place where anything interesting happens these days.

The midfield was just as competitive in 2012 as it is in 2020. The only difference is that in 2012 we had competition at the front, so no one cared about what happened to Toro Rosso.
What has happened is that Mercedes increased the gap to p2 and p3 to a very calculated and predicted level of repeatability. Hamilton's consistency exagerates the dominance. But overall F1 hasnt gotten any worse.
Of course it has. The competition at the front is at an all-time. The viewership has been decreasing for years now. Nobody apart from Hamilton fans think that Mercedes parades are good for the sport.
Shumacher dominant days to me were still more predictable. He literally smiled and waved his way to wins.
You are objectively wrong.

Ferrari won 57 races from 2000-2004
Mercedes won 102 races from 2014-2020

Jolle
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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Kingshark wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:24 am
Jolle wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:42 pm
Kingshark wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:26 pm

Nah, that’s not even remotely close to being true.

Vettel won 4 championships on the bounce while Alonso (a superior driver) was stuck in an inferior Ferrari. The fact that Alonso was better than Vettel did not encourage Red Bull to change their driver lineup.

The fact that Hamilton is driving a Mercedes right now is zero evidence on whether he is actually the best driver on the grid. As Russell showed in Sakhir, looking good in a Mercedes is not that difficult (even without practice)

This idea that the best drivers will always end up in the best teams is a complete myth, an idealistic concept that has no basis in reality.

Having the best car in Formula 1 is mostly down to dumb luck.
Seeing this is a technical forum, formula one is who can build and race the best car. Spec series are kinda fun, but so uninteresting on a technical level for me. From the first time I watched F1 the pushing the limit on car development is so much more rewarding then the endless discussions that driver x would beat driver y in the same car.
Honest question: if all the F1 drivers were replaced by AI robots who had equal ability, so that the cars were the only thing that mattered, would you still watch F1?

I’m actually curious about your answer
Oh hell yes!
The Williams W15C was almost that, stil one of my all time favourites.

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El Scorchio
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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Kingshark wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:13 am
ringo wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:40 am
So in summary these times were not more competitive than now. They had the dice thrown with rule changes and the season took a little longer to settle down. 2020 was very competitive. The midfield is stronger than it has ever been.
Midfield has always been competitive. The reason why people have only began to notice recently is because there is nothing happening at the front, so people focus more on the midfield because that’s the only place where anything interesting happens these days.

The midfield was just as competitive in 2012 as it is in 2020. The only difference is that in 2012 we had competition at the front, so no one cared about what happened to Toro Rosso.
What has happened is that Mercedes increased the gap to p2 and p3 to a very calculated and predicted level of repeatability. Hamilton's consistency exagerates the dominance. But overall F1 hasnt gotten any worse.
Of course it has. The competition at the front is at an all-time. The viewership has been decreasing for years now. Nobody apart from Hamilton fans think that Mercedes parades are good for the sport.
Shumacher dominant days to me were still more predictable. He literally smiled and waved his way to wins.
You are objectively wrong.

Ferrari won 57 races from 2000-2004
Mercedes won 102 races from 2014-2020
You've misrepresented the comparative success of Ferrari and Mercedes with just putting those numbers there to make it look far more different than it is.

A bit better/more accurate analysis paints a somewhat different picture.

There were only 85 races in the Ferrari period you mentioned, and 138 in the Mercedes period. The win tallies over the number of Grand Prix are as follows:

Ferrari- 57/85- 67%
Mercedes 102/138- 74%

So actually it's not much of a difference. Of course you also need to factor in that there was no intra team competition allowed at Ferrari, whereas there is at Mercedes. This added caveat means that Schumacher wasn't even challenged for any of the titles or race wins (where anything was actually at stake) by his own team mate, whereas at least Hamilton is. Barrichello was allowed eight victories in those five years. Almost all at the end of a season after the championship was decided

I think there's a very strong argument that given the prescribed lack of competition at Ferrari, the Ferrari/Schumacher seasons were in fact (even) less competitive than the Mercedes/Hamilton ones.

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NathanOlder
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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Kingshark wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:20 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:07 pm
Kingshark wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:23 pm

No it has not always been like this. One team being this dominant for this long a period is something that has never been seen before in the history of this sport.
It has always been like this. Drivers miss out on WDC contention because there isn't enough top teams to offer the number of top drivers a seat. So I'll say it again, F1 has always been like this.
How often has there been more than 3 teams capable of winning a WDC in a season? Remembering that most teams like a number 1 and number 2 driver, so only 1 seat for a top driver..... answer.... not many. How many times has there been more than 3 top tier drivers on the grid in one season? a lot. So yes, F1 has always been like this.
Here’s a list of drivers that had a car capable of winning the championship from 2014-2020:

- Hamilton
- Rosberg
- Bottas
- Vettel
- Raikkonen

That’s 5 drivers in 7 years.

Now compare that to 2005-2011 (also a 7 year period):

- Hamilton
- Alonso
- Schumacher
- Massa
- Raikkonen
- Button
- Barrichello
- Vettel
- Webber
- Fisichella

That’s 10 drivers in 5 years.

Only five drivers having a shot at a WDC capable car in 7 years is completely unheard of in F1 history. You can look at any other 7 year period and the competition will be far greater. That is precisely why I call 2014-2020 the zero competition era.
But your list there just shows it wasn't zero competition #-o #-o
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Big Tea
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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Kingshark wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:24 am
Jolle wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:42 pm
Kingshark wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:26 pm
Honest question: if all the F1 drivers were replaced by AI robots who had equal ability, so that the cars were the only thing that mattered, would you still watch F1?

I’m actually curious about your answer
I most certainly would, but it would not be F1 :mrgreen:
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.

Jolle
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:36 pm
Kingshark wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:20 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:07 pm


It has always been like this. Drivers miss out on WDC contention because there isn't enough top teams to offer the number of top drivers a seat. So I'll say it again, F1 has always been like this.
How often has there been more than 3 teams capable of winning a WDC in a season? Remembering that most teams like a number 1 and number 2 driver, so only 1 seat for a top driver..... answer.... not many. How many times has there been more than 3 top tier drivers on the grid in one season? a lot. So yes, F1 has always been like this.
Here’s a list of drivers that had a car capable of winning the championship from 2014-2020:

- Hamilton
- Rosberg
- Bottas
- Vettel
- Raikkonen

That’s 5 drivers in 7 years.

Now compare that to 2005-2011 (also a 7 year period):

- Hamilton
- Alonso
- Schumacher
- Massa
- Raikkonen
- Button
- Barrichello
- Vettel
- Webber
- Fisichella

That’s 10 drivers in 5 years.

Only five drivers having a shot at a WDC capable car in 7 years is completely unheard of in F1 history. You can look at any other 7 year period and the competition will be far greater. That is precisely why I call 2014-2020 the zero competition era.
But your list there just shows it wasn't zero competition #-o #-o
Drivers and their battles are a nice distraction of there it ultimately revolves around. The car and the technical side. The real stars. Lotus 49, the mighty M23, the 79 ground effect car, first carbon chassis MP4, the RS01, FW14 and its successors, MP4/4, RB7, the vapourware that was the MP4/18 and now the W11.

Kingshark
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:36 pm
But your list there just shows it wasn't zero competition #-o #-o
Everything in F1 is relative.

The reason why I call 2014-2020 the zero competition era is because the level of competition at the front has been embarrassingly low compared to any other era.

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NathanOlder
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Location: Kent

Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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Kingshark wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:03 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:36 pm
But your list there just shows it wasn't zero competition #-o #-o
Everything in F1 is relative.

The reason why I call 2014-2020 the zero competition era is because the level of competition at the front has been embarrassingly low compared to any other era.
But 2017 and 2018 were amazzingly competetive compared to.... 1988, 1992, 1993, 1996, 2002, 2004.
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Kingshark
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:23 am
Kingshark wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:03 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:36 pm
But your list there just shows it wasn't zero competition #-o #-o
Everything in F1 is relative.

The reason why I call 2014-2020 the zero competition era is because the level of competition at the front has been embarrassingly low compared to any other era.
But 2017 and 2018 were amazzingly competetive compared to.... 1988, 1992, 1993, 1996, 2002, 2004.
2 seasons in a 7 year period is an abysmal return.

dans79
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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Kingshark wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:13 am
You are objectively wrong.

Ferrari won 57 races from 2000-2004
Mercedes won 102 races from 2014-2020
Its an opinion, so he is not objectively wrong any more than you are right. You would do well to learn that before the mods step in and shut you down!
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aMessageToCharlie
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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dans79 wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:34 pm
Kingshark wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:13 am
You are objectively wrong.

Ferrari won 57 races from 2000-2004
Mercedes won 102 races from 2014-2020
Its an opinion, so he is not objectively wrong any more than you are right. You would do well to learn that before the mods step in and shut you down!
Ah, yes. Threatening with censorship is a great way to handle a discussion.

dans79
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Re: Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

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aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:49 pm
dans79 wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:34 pm
Kingshark wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:13 am
You are objectively wrong.

Ferrari won 57 races from 2000-2004
Mercedes won 102 races from 2014-2020
Its an opinion, so he is not objectively wrong any more than you are right. You would do well to learn that before the mods step in and shut you down!
Ah, yes. Threatening with censorship is a great way to handle a discussion.
It's not censorship, arguing the same point over and over again trying to prove that everyone else is wrong and you are right is against the rules.
164 98 95 7