2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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aMessageToCharlie
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:50 am
aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:08 am
Claiming Mercedes didn't have a clue what they were doing and just lucked into success is an insult to the whole hard working organization.
Did anyone claim that? No.

Yes, the post that I quoted and responded to. :wink:

"Early 2013 Mercedes didn’t have a concept."

basti313
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:50 am
aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:08 am
Claiming Mercedes didn't have a clue what they were doing and just lucked into success is an insult to the whole hard working organization.
Did anyone claim that? No.

The statement was that Hamilton gambled on his move and his gamble paid off. It might not have - Ferrari have had the biggest budget for years and haven't won a title since 2007/8. But they might just as easily have found the magic bullet and been the team to beat in the V6T era.
Everybody knows, and this is what you also describe, that money is pace in F1. One team is more efficient than the other, but in the big picture the WCC always nearly sorts by the budgets.

Since 2017 the budgets are more clear, before it was just rumors...but what we know is that McLaren was well behind in numbers to Merc already in 2013, considering the engine payments for 2014 you can see that the budget of McLaren was nearly half of the Merc budget. This is what is black on white visible as well in the more precise numbers after 2017.

The move from McLaren to Merc was the clearest thing to do, as Lewis knew the vanishing McLaren budget and Niki certainly let him know about the Merc budgets. That had nothing to do with a gamble.

You can argue, that the Ferrari budget is somewhere close to Merc or even higher, but there was no seat, so irrelevant.

Slo Poke
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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noname wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:41 am
Slo Poke wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:39 pm
Early 2013 Mercedes didn’t have a concept. Early 2013 the only thing Mercedes had was a tyre burning rear axle, they’d been trying to cure for three years.
Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault had prototypes of their hybrid engines on dynos already in 2011.
Each of them was different, because each team had different car philosophy (read: concept).
Well! I’ve performed as instructed and read: concept. Trouble is though what I found proves my point. In that early 2013, Mercedes did not have a conceptual invention or a philosophy with which to entice or engender any kind of notion concerning multiple championships.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:20 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:50 am
aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:08 am
Claiming Mercedes didn't have a clue what they were doing and just lucked into success is an insult to the whole hard working organization.
Did anyone claim that? No.

Yes, the post that I quoted and responded to. :wink:

"Early 2013 Mercedes didn’t have a concept."
He didn't say that didn't have a clue and lucked in to success as you suggest. He said that their car, at the time that Hamilton signed, was burning rear tyres which it was.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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basti313 wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:27 pm

The move from McLaren to Merc was the clearest thing to do, as Lewis knew the vanishing McLaren budget and Niki certainly let him know about the Merc budgets. That had nothing to do with a gamble.

You can argue, that the Ferrari budget is somewhere close to Merc or even higher, but there was no seat, so irrelevant.
Ferrari's budget showed that budget alone did not guarantee success. Hence, even if Hamilton knew what Mercedes was spending, it was still a gamble. At the time he signed, Mercedes wasn't seen as being a good bet by anyone and many commented at the time that it was a big risk.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

noname
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Location: EU

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:30 am
(...) Mercedes had no idea how good they would be compared to their competitors. I believe the term used late in 2014 testing what "quietly optimistic."
Mercedes biggest strength was, and still is, being humble. I have utmost respect to them for this.

They were good enough, that on the 1st day of pre-season testing, Ferrari realized they need brand new power unit (and thus whole car) concept. Already that day decision was made to accelerate work on 2015 PU, with the aim on having it in the car ASAP.

On the same day when Mercedes was logging lap after lap RedBull was not able to leave the garage. Embarassing spectacle.

dans79
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:12 pm
He said that their car, at the time that Hamilton signed, was burning rear tyres which it was.
I remember brawn saying that problem with the 2012 car was that they had bad correlation in regards to the Coanda exhaust. Simulations said they were fine, but as certain speeds and certain yaw angles, the exhaust would blow directly onto the rear wheels.

Fixing that issues has probably paid as much if not more dividends than the engine department has. Almost every aerodynamic component put on the car just works. They've had issues at times getting the set-up right, but I've not heard of them taking anything off the car because it didn't work.

Hopefully that trend continues into 2021 & 2022.
164 98 95 7

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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noname wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:10 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:30 am
(...) Mercedes had no idea how good they would be compared to their competitors. I believe the term used late in 2014 testing what "quietly optimistic."
Mercedes biggest strength was, and still is, being humble. I have utmost respect to them for this.

They were good enough, that on the 1st day of pre-season testing, Ferrari realized they need brand new power unit (and thus whole car) concept. Already that day decision was made to accelerate work on 2015 PU, with the aim on having it in the car ASAP.

On the same day when Mercedes was logging lap after lap RedBull was not able to leave the garage. Embarassing spectacle.
What undoubtedly helped Mercedes was that they weren't fighting for the championships in 2012 and 2013. The 2013 car was quick over a lap, especially in Hamilton's very average hands (it's the car, you know!), securing a total of 8 poles, but it struggled in races, winning only once from pole for each driver. So Mercedes were probably quite happy to put effort and resources in to the 2014 regulations change whilst RedBull and Ferrari were still likely more focussed on 2013.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Phil
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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basti313 wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:27 pm
Since 2017 the budgets are more clear, before it was just rumors...but what we know is that McLaren was well behind in numbers to Merc already in 2013, considering the engine payments for 2014 you can see that the budget of McLaren was nearly half of the Merc budget.
McLaren didnt build engines. That accounts for a large difference in “budget”. It’s funny how many today are saying that moving to Mercedes was the clearest thing to do, while back then, no one did, when Hamilton came so close to not winning the championship in a McLaren while Mercedes was no where close to even winning races.

Before 2014, no one knew who would ace the new engine regs.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

basti313
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:15 pm
Ferrari's budget showed that budget alone did not guarantee success.
Ferrari is a bad example. The reason why Ferrari is/was not good is the location in Italy. No matter what they spend, they do not get the good F1 engineers from UK as good as UK teams and can not keep them long.

Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:15 pm
At the time he signed, Mercedes wasn't seen as being a good bet by anyone and many commented at the time that it was a big risk.
Because no one knew the budgets! It is well known that Niki convinced Ham. Ham knew about the vanishing/stuck McLaren budget, Hamilton and Niki knew about the engine deal and Niki knew about the money Merc is releasing.
It is quite clear that at the point where Hamilton and Niki fixed the deal, the big budget for 2013 was already clear to Niki.

noname wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:10 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:30 am
(...) Mercedes had no idea how good they would be compared to their competitors. I believe the term used late in 2014 testing what "quietly optimistic."
Mercedes biggest strength was, and still is, being humble. I have utmost respect to them for this.
No idea what you mean with this. Building a car that is designed to run at the front in clean air is a bit of an opposite to "being humble"...
Also designing at the absolute technical limit is a complete opposite of "being humble". RedBull tried the same and overheated. Merc is simply the only team that can operate its hybrid engine constantly at the absolute heat limits.
Phil wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:15 am
McLaren didnt build engines. That accounts for a large difference in “budget”.
No. The budgets for the Merc F1 team and HPP are always separate. With the small detail to note that Merc did not pay HPP for the engines in contrast to McLaren, who had to spend ~10% of the budget for engines.

Also the employee numbers are separate. In 2014 or 15, not 100% sure about the year, Merc had 100 people more than McLaren...plus the people in Stuttgart (around 30) and at HPP. With also the small sidenote, that HPP engineers were day after day in the F1 team for the integration and getting the heat management right. Also in Stuttgart, the employees are extremly good engineers, not only working towards HPP, but also in aero. This follows the well known thing at BMW, that the F1 team always got some help from the real aero experts at the headquarters...
Phil wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:15 am
Before 2014, no one knew who would ace the new engine regs.
If I am not mistaken McLaren and Merc had the same engine at this time?
Phil wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:15 am
It’s funny how many today are saying that moving to Mercedes was the clearest thing to do, while back then, no one did, when Hamilton came so close to not winning the championship in a McLaren while Mercedes was no where close to even winning races.
I think it is rather funny, that people think Ham lucked into the winning seat. He did a strategic move based on clear evidence, that it is the right move. As a CEO in a company he would get all credit he deserves for this, here people seem to see Ham as a stupid child that simply acts on feelings.

Jolle
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Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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basti313 wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:07 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:15 pm
Ferrari's budget showed that budget alone did not guarantee success.
Ferrari is a bad example. The reason why Ferrari is/was not good is the location in Italy. No matter what they spend, they do not get the good F1 engineers from UK as good as UK teams and can not keep them long.

Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:15 pm
At the time he signed, Mercedes wasn't seen as being a good bet by anyone and many commented at the time that it was a big risk.
Because no one knew the budgets! It is well known that Niki convinced Ham. Ham knew about the vanishing/stuck McLaren budget, Hamilton and Niki knew about the engine deal and Niki knew about the money Merc is releasing.
It is quite clear that at the point where Hamilton and Niki fixed the deal, the big budget for 2013 was already clear to Niki.

noname wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:10 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:30 am
(...) Mercedes had no idea how good they would be compared to their competitors. I believe the term used late in 2014 testing what "quietly optimistic."
Mercedes biggest strength was, and still is, being humble. I have utmost respect to them for this.
No idea what you mean with this. Building a car that is designed to run at the front in clean air is a bit of an opposite to "being humble"...
Also designing at the absolute technical limit is a complete opposite of "being humble". RedBull tried the same and overheated. Merc is simply the only team that can operate its hybrid engine constantly at the absolute heat limits.
Phil wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:15 am
McLaren didnt build engines. That accounts for a large difference in “budget”.
No. The budgets for the Merc F1 team and HPP are always separate. With the small detail to note that Merc did not pay HPP for the engines in contrast to McLaren, who had to spend ~10% of the budget for engines.

Also the employee numbers are separate. In 2014 or 15, not 100% sure about the year, Merc had 100 people more than McLaren...plus the people in Stuttgart (around 30) and at HPP. With also the small sidenote, that HPP engineers were day after day in the F1 team for the integration and getting the heat management right. Also in Stuttgart, the employees are extremly good engineers, not only working towards HPP, but also in aero. This follows the well known thing at BMW, that the F1 team always got some help from the real aero experts at the headquarters...
Phil wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:15 am
Before 2014, no one knew who would ace the new engine regs.
If I am not mistaken McLaren and Merc had the same engine at this time?
Phil wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:15 am
It’s funny how many today are saying that moving to Mercedes was the clearest thing to do, while back then, no one did, when Hamilton came so close to not winning the championship in a McLaren while Mercedes was no where close to even winning races.
I think it is rather funny, that people think Ham lucked into the winning seat. He did a strategic move based on clear evidence, that it is the right move. As a CEO in a company he would get all credit he deserves for this, here people seem to see Ham as a stupid child that simply acts on feelings.
There is a bit more to this story.
Hamilton is and was a Mercedes junior and McLaren was part of the Daimler family. After the breakup in 2009 (just after Hamilton signed a new 3 year deal with McLaren), key management and some key personnel made the leap as well. But, it was still a leap of course. Bit like the leap Ricciardo took with Renault. Big ramp up in budget, lots of new blood but still finishing well behind the former works team.

basti313
basti313
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Jolle wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:49 pm
There is a bit more to this story.
Sure. We are pushing some arguments, I think the whole story can fill a book.
Jolle wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:49 pm
Hamilton is and was a Mercedes junior and McLaren was part of the Daimler family. After the breakup in 2009 (just after Hamilton signed a new 3 year deal with McLaren), key management and some key personnel made the leap as well.

That is another strategic point. Not only budget was vanishing at McLaren, but also personel. Also the move of Paddy was close to the move of Lewis.

The thing with the "Mercedes Junior" still puzzles me. I do not see any link to Merc before Lewis entered F1. Can you elaborate more? McLaren had an alliance with Merc, but in the books it is not more than an engine supplier and sponsorship deal with Merc. It did not affect the McLaren company besides F1.
Jolle wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:49 pm
But, it was still a leap of course. Bit like the leap Ricciardo took with Renault. Big ramp up in budget, lots of new blood but still finishing well behind the former works team.
I still fail to see the leap.
Yes, at the time of 2012, McLaren was better and I also thought "what is he doing?". But if you look back...the vanishing budget, personal and if you want to compare the deal that Lewis got with Merc....it is the plain obvious move to do.
Now to really compare with Ricciardo you need to look at the money. No matter what performance leap Ricciardo did...RedBull offered him a badly paid long Nr.2 contract, while at Renault he got a three year 45Mio contract...

Jolle
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Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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basti313 wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:14 pm
Jolle wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:49 pm
There is a bit more to this story.
Sure. We are pushing some arguments, I think the whole story can fill a book.
Jolle wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:49 pm
Hamilton is and was a Mercedes junior and McLaren was part of the Daimler family. After the breakup in 2009 (just after Hamilton signed a new 3 year deal with McLaren), key management and some key personnel made the leap as well.

That is another strategic point. Not only budget was vanishing at McLaren, but also personel. Also the move of Paddy was close to the move of Lewis.

The thing with the "Mercedes Junior" still puzzles me. I do not see any link to Merc before Lewis entered F1. Can you elaborate more? McLaren had an alliance with Merc, but in the books it is not more than an engine supplier and sponsorship deal with Merc. It did not affect the McLaren company besides F1.
Jolle wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:49 pm
But, it was still a leap of course. Bit like the leap Ricciardo took with Renault. Big ramp up in budget, lots of new blood but still finishing well behind the former works team.
I still fail to see the leap.
Yes, at the time of 2012, McLaren was better and I also thought "what is he doing?". But if you look back...the vanishing budget, personal and if you want to compare the deal that Lewis got with Merc....it is the plain obvious move to do.
Now to really compare with Ricciardo you need to look at the money. No matter what performance leap Ricciardo did...RedBull offered him a badly paid long Nr.2 contract, while at Renault he got a three year 45Mio contract...
The Mercedes-McLaren deal. It was more then just suppling engines. Not only did Daimler own 40% of McLaren (and being their biggest shareholder), Daimler people were on the board of directors, Haug was part of the Woking group, McLaren made the SLR for instance. They also ran most of the McLaren marketing and operations outside the factory/racing team, the same way Philip Morris International did before them. Basically, McLaren ran a part of Daimler’s motorsport program (like HWA does in other series). Hamilton, DiResta, Heidfeld and Rosberg were part of this partnership as the juniors. Heidfeld and Rosberg were called on immediately when Mercedes returned as the rebranded Brawn, together with other former junior Schumacher. DiResta remained at Force India, who had a partnership with Mercedes, having to switch from McLaren to Mercedes gearboxes for 2010. Mercedes tried for years (before Ferrari started winning in 2000) to lure Schumacher in one of their seats again.

2009 was a bit like a divorce. Mamma Daimler and dad McLaren. Some of the drivers went with mom immediately, some stayed with dad a couple of years but made the switch eventually. McLaren had to build their own junior program after that, with VanDoonre, Magnussen and De Vries the first real members.

It would be like if PMI and Ferrari would split up. Would Lecerc stay with Ferrari or would he follow PMI?

aMessageToCharlie
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:12 pm
aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:20 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:50 am

Did anyone claim that? No.

Yes, the post that I quoted and responded to. :wink:

"Early 2013 Mercedes didn’t have a concept."
He didn't say that didn't have a clue and lucked in to success as you suggest. He said that their car, at the time that Hamilton signed, was burning rear tyres which it was.
The post said exactly what I quoted. What else do you interpret "didn’t have a concept" as?

And why are you arguing on behalf of someone else in the first place while entirely missing the point? Just let it go, mate.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:12 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:12 pm
aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:20 pm



Yes, the post that I quoted and responded to. :wink:

"Early 2013 Mercedes didn’t have a concept."
He didn't say that didn't have a clue and lucked in to success as you suggest. He said that their car, at the time that Hamilton signed, was burning rear tyres which it was.
The post said exactly what I quoted. What else do you interpret "didn’t have a concept" as?

And why are you arguing on behalf of someone else in the first place while entirely missing the point? Just let it go, mate.
You said someone "claimed Mercedes didn't have a clue". That's not what was said. But never mind.

Oh, and please don't call me "mate". Thank you.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"