2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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SiLo
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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Partymood wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:28 pm
SiLo wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:19 am
Anybody making any reference to Ferrari and FIA about 2005 really needs to stop pedalling that story. The FIA made changes that affected everyone, the fact that Ferrari ended up being hit the most might make it seem like that was the intended purpose, but it really wasn't. The same is happening here.
Sure
Great argument there, but I'll explain more.

Whilst the usual aim of regs changes like that is to bring the field closer together, there is also opportunity for it to get further apart. They can't just change a regulation to hurt a single team, they can only do that by banning specific parts of cars or technical tricks that they may be using that other teams aren't. The same has happened with Mercedes. FRIC got banned, other suspension components got banned as well that ended up hurting Red Bull too. Oil burning was banned and it hurt Ferrari more.

So whilst Mercedes may have been impacted most by the current changes, it is silly to suggest that was the intended purpose of the regulation changes. The current changes are due to tyre issues and an increasing amount of downforce making it difficult for Pirelli to design tyres that were not only safe, but the teams liked as well.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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KiLLu12258 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:49 am


The change this season is very sus i think. I mean for which reason you make those changes one year before the real rule change which will lead to completely different cars. It makes no sense.
The changes were made for a simple reason - tyres. The cars were developing downforce that was stressing the rear tyres. The fear was that the cars would, this season, develop additional downforce that would then put the rear tyres at real risk of failures. Pirelli developed a stronger tyre to try to help prevent that happening, but the worry was still there.

So the easy option was to cut downforce - which is exactly what the change to the floor does.

The alternative would have been telling the teams to bring exactly the same cars to this season as they had last season. But that would have been much the same as just handing Mercedes the titles, so wasn't really an option at all.
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Sevach
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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It does seem like low rake cars got hit harder, but hard to quantify how much.
It is also somewhat disrespectfull to the great job Honda did, they certainly are responsible for shaving quite a few tenths.
And Red Bull finally getting the formula right from day one, last season was their first with narrow nose and cape and started as a bit of a sideways step.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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Sevach wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:16 pm
It does seem like low rake cars got hit harder, but hard to quantify how much.
It is also somewhat disrespectfull to the great job Honda did, they certainly are responsible for shaving quite a few tenths.
And Red Bull finally getting the formula right from day one, last season was their first with narrow nose and cape and started as a bit of a sideways step.
I think it's a combination of things. Last year the Red Bull was tricky. They've sorted that and that alone will gain laptime. The PU is obviously very good too. Mercedes have gone the other way and have a chassis that isn't quite there. Maybe that's an aero issue from the floor changes. Then Mercedes also have a new PU concept (or a significant change anyway). The result is the two have come together in performance. It's not one issue, it's a combination of things.

Now we get to see who manages the development balance this year.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Sevach
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:16 pm
Sevach wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:16 pm
It does seem like low rake cars got hit harder, but hard to quantify how much.
It is also somewhat disrespectfull to the great job Honda did, they certainly are responsible for shaving quite a few tenths.
And Red Bull finally getting the formula right from day one, last season was their first with narrow nose and cape and started as a bit of a sideways step.
I think it's a combination of things. Last year the Red Bull was tricky. They've sorted that and that alone will gain laptime. The PU is obviously very good too. Mercedes have gone the other way and have a chassis that isn't quite there. Maybe that's an aero issue from the floor changes. Then Mercedes also have a new PU concept (or a significant change anyway). The result is the two have come together in performance. It's not one issue, it's a combination of things.

Now we get to see who manages the development balance this year.
It's always a combination of things, imo 2020 was a combo of Mercedes having a sizeable power advantage and RedBull's car being "messy" (and of course Ferrari who was the main threat in 2019 at a number of tracks dropping off a cliff).
I do think Mercedes being difficult, which was more a pre-season thing btw, can be attributed on some level to the rule changes, they needed to readjust how they setup the car.

Also it's easier to improve on an average car than on a great one.

cooken
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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This seems relevant.


Sevach
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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His point about the brake ducts on low rake cars being too high up make sense.

dans79
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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It's the first theory I've seen from anyone in the paddock that made any sense at all. Al the other talking heads have been babbling about the floor cuts hurting the low rake teams more.

I too think this is a problem they will solve quickly.
168 99 96 7

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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It's just going to be a case of finding the right device and finding the best location for it within the rules, in order to generate a cleaning effect. I wouldn't be surprised to see various VG fences on the floor in this area as they fine tune the effect.

Also, any betting on Mercedes (and others) turning up soon with a McLaren style diffuser set up? I would think that will be copied by everyone fairly quickly.
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Sevach
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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dans79 wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:41 am
It's the first theory I've seen from anyone in the paddock that made any sense at all. Al the other talking heads have been babbling about the floor cuts hurting the low rake teams more.

I too think this is a problem they will solve quickly.
As he pointed out, before seeing the results, these talking heads were expecting high rake cars to suffer.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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Sevach wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:16 pm
It does seem like low rake cars got hit harder, but hard to quantify how much.
It is also somewhat disrespectfull to the great job Honda did, they certainly are responsible for shaving quite a few tenths.
And Red Bull finally getting the formula right from day one, last season was their first with narrow nose and cape and started as a bit of a sideways step.
Honda/RedBull has nothing to do with this.
Just comparing with last year's times Mercedes and Aston lost much more than the others. Even Williams who has a crappy chassis and uses the same engine. Even Haas too.

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Juzh
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:51 am
Sevach wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:16 pm
It does seem like low rake cars got hit harder, but hard to quantify how much.
It is also somewhat disrespectfull to the great job Honda did, they certainly are responsible for shaving quite a few tenths.
And Red Bull finally getting the formula right from day one, last season was their first with narrow nose and cape and started as a bit of a sideways step.
Honda/RedBull has nothing to do with this.
That's like saying mercedes had nothing do with 2014 reg dominance. All down to FIA curb stomping RB who dominated 2013. Evil FIA :evil:

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henry
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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If @Scarbs theory about the low rake car issues is right I would expect that the low rake cars would be more affected than high rake in low and medium speed corners. As speed rises the difference in rake between the two approaches reduces. Is this something the data from the first race supports?
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Sevach
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:51 am
Honda/RedBull has nothing to do with this.
Just comparing with last year's times Mercedes and Aston lost much more than the others. Even Williams who has a crappy chassis and uses the same engine. Even Haas too.
Yes they do, Ferrari is the team that lost the least amount of lap time compared to 2020, by a large margin, that would be because this current chassis is more competent than last years (in relation to the competition, obviously it's slower with the new rules) and the engine had a quantum leap, Alfa Romeo also benefits from this engine jump to be the second on the list.

Honda also has had quite a jump compared to last years it seems, in pure lap time terms this power increase will act as a counter balance to the loss of downforce and grip.

Mclaren has also been flaunting how going from Renault to Mercedes was "free lap time".
https://www.racefans.net/2021/04/05/nor ... ower-unit/
Mclaren going from Renault 2020 to Merc 2021 put them in the same category of improvement as Red Bull and Alpha Tauri, and that's a team that didn't have the freedom to explore how to use their tokens.

Teams that (seemingly)didn't have a big power jump are bottom of the list, Alpine, Mercedes, Aston, Williams... 2 high rake and 2 low rake cars... Haas being an outlier due to having a hack job of a chassis.

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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The plot thickens again...

Aston Martin demands a mid-season adjustment to the bodywork regulations (at the Imola GP), to compensate their "unfair" disadvantage. First, Aston Martin would like a discussion and possible regulation amendments to be evaluated.

Most curious!