Recent performances of Felipe Massa

[andartop]

Obviously such a massive accident can have an impact on a race driver, we've seen it before.

The reason I tend to think it's nothing to do with his accident is simply that it was a freak accident. He did not do anything wrong, and he has no recollection of it happening. I am not a psychiatrist, but I think it would have been much more likely for him to lose that 5% - or more - had it been a mistake by Felipe that led to the accident. But we will never know.

On the other hand, we do have evidence that Felipe has always suffered with tire management, ie when traction control was banned or pretty much every time the rain starts to fall.

Testing limitations may also have well come into play.

And we know that the Ferraris of late have been a bitch of a car to really get to grips with - ask Fisichella.

So I'd rather, for now, base my assumptions on the more obvious reasons why Felipe seems to be underperforming, coupled with a team mate who seems to be squeezing a much better performance out of the same car.

[Maidel]

Oh I dont think its a pyscological thing - I think the accident litterally knocked some sense out of him.

If you listen to richard hammond talking about his accident (Something he doesnt remember either) he says he does all manner of things differently now, to before the accident.

James Cracknel has even been told he shouldnt be left alone with his own children in case he forgets they are there!

Given the severity of his injury I would be genuinely shocked if it hasnt left some sort of perminant physical effect on him.

Couple that with the evidence that he went from championship winner (for 30 seconds...) one season, to also ran the next year (well the year after as the accident happened in the middle of that year.

The two things that happened in between were alonso joining the team and his accident. For me, that is pretty much evidence that one of those two things has caused his loss of form, and for me, a driver like him doesnt lose this much simply because his team mate is a bit faster than him.

[andartop]

More things have changed over the last few years: rule changes, new tires, new cars.

With regards to permanent physical damage, surely there would be evidence of that in all the medical checks he had to undergo before returning to F1. Apparently, he was found to be in good physical condition.

I am not trying to underestimate the severity of his injuries, but I doubt Felipe would have returned if he was physically impaired in any way. His performance in the German GP last year prior to the team orders showed that he is physically capable of being back up there. But he is not.

[Maidel]

Dont get me wrong - hes obviously still capable of driving the car very well. but we arent talking about 'very well' - but nearly perfectly.

At this level of sport you arent talking about a second here or there, you are talking about 100ths of seconds on every corner of every lap.

So a driver who loses 1% is past it - 1% of lap times goes from 1st to 5th (unless you are vettle and are 0.8 seconds ahead of everyone else already...)

What I am saying is that he doesnt have to be metally or physically imparied, obviously they would have spotted that, he just has to of lost 1-2%.

As for the changes - well they affected everyone, it wasnt like they only applied to massa.

[747heavy]

Karl Wendlinger comes to mind

[andartop]

As for the changes - well they affected everyone, it wasnt like they only applied to massa.

They sure did, look at a certain 7 time world champion's recent performances!

Joking aside, rule changes may affect some drivers more than others, depending on one's driving style. Also, some drivers seem to be able to adapt to changes faster or better than others. Alonso and Lewis spring to mind.

I don't think Massa has ever showed that he is one of those that can easily adapt their driving to suit the car, on the contrary, he is more like Button: the speed is there if everything in their car is exactly as they like it to be, but if it's not they seem to struggle more than their team mates.

[Maidel]

They sure did, look at a certain 7 time world champion's recent performances!

I dont recognise a 7 time world champion driving at the moment. Theres a guy with the same name - but its not the same person.

I don't think Massa has ever showed that he is one of those that can easily adapt their driving to suit the car, on the contrary, he is more like Button: the speed is there if everything in their car is exactly as they like it to be, but if it's not they seem to struggle more than their team mates.

I think that applies to all drivers other than hamilton and (as much as it pains me) Alonso. (possibly kubica - im open to that possibility).

Everyone else seems to drive to the cars capability. EG - last year the mclaren wasnt competative, Button won some races by being Mr steady (and Mr I can predict the weather), but hamilton won by driving faster than the car really should go.

The last 2 world champions have been the driver than was better than their teamate in a car that should have had the championship sewn up by mid season.

So again, I dont think the changes affected massa any more than any other driver, just 2 drivers seem to be able to get speed where there shouldnt be any, and it just so happens that one of them is in the same car as massa.

[andartop]

I dont recognise a 7 time world champion driving at the moment. Theres a guy with the same name - but its not the same person.

..Just 2 drivers seem to be able to get speed where there shouldnt be any, and it just so happens that one of them is in the same car as massa.

Hard to tell. Might as well be the other way around: 2 drivers fail to deliver as much as their car can achieve, and one of them is Massa. The other one hasn't had any serious accident for us to attribute his (relevant) performance loss to, has he?

[Maidel]

Hard to tell. Might as well be the other way around: 2 drivers fail to deliver as much as their car can achieve, and one of them is Massa. The other one hasn't had any serious accident for us to attribute his (relevant) performance loss to, has he?

Ah, interresting. However I was talking over the last few years, as apposed to simply the last race.

Yes, both ferraris appeared to underperform this weekend, however I dont think that is the case. I think Redbull were sandbagging knowing just how fast they were, I think Mclaren spent a hell of a lot on midnight oil between last practice and the first race to catch up (has anyone blamed Ron Dennis for the uprising in the middle east? If not, id be surprised seeing as how much it benefited Mclaren and how that man is basically the antichrist for all non-mclaren fans).

I think Ferrari did the opposite to Redbull - ran flat out in practice and what we saw was a half developed mclaren against a half performing redbull against a flat out ferarri.

Therefore I dont think both ferraris underperformed in Auzz, I think we saw the cars true pace from Massa, and the car pushed past its limits from Alonso (with a shocking start thrown in to make it interresting).

[Mr Alcatraz]

Alonso > Massa end of!

[tarrant]

Oh I dont think its a pyscological thing - I think the accident litterally knocked some sense out of him.

If you listen to richard hammond talking about his accident (Something he doesnt remember either) he says he does all manner of things differently now, to before the accident.

James Cracknel has even been told he shouldnt be left alone with his own children in case he forgets they are there!

Given the severity of his injury I would be genuinely shocked if it hasnt left some sort of perminant physical effect on him.

Couple that with the evidence that he went from championship winner (for 30 seconds...) one season, to also ran the next year (well the year after as the accident happened in the middle of that year.

.

If Massa has similar mental damage to Hammond it would be visible to medical tests and members of the team and his family, but there is no evidence not even rumours. There is nothing wrong with him at all.

The two things that happened in between were alonso joining the team and his accident. For me, that is pretty much evidence that one of those two things has caused his loss of form, and for me, a driver like him doesnt lose this much simply because his team mate is a bit faster than him.

Why on earth do so many people like you keep insisting Massa has lost form? Don't you understand the concept of 'relative'? For example if you race a volkswagon, your car will seem quick, but if you race a ferrari it will look slow. Massa's team mate is now much faster and consistent to his previous one so massa looks much worse but in reality hes performing at the exact same level as before.

And please dont bring up 2008, when Massa had the fastest car by a mile. Its easy to look great under those conditions. Before 2010 started I was one of the few who predicted Alonso would destroy Massa, and I was 100% right despite many being shocked at such a prediction. They were and still are shocked for only 1 reason. They overrated Kimi. Massa has always been average. Heifeld destroyed him. So did Fisichella, so did Michael. He only started looking good when he got the best car on the grid and an overrated team mate. How hes once again matched up to a genius and thus looks average just like Fisichella did against ALonso or Rubens against Michael.

Amazes me so many just cant accept Alonso really is that much better than Massa, and stop with the silly fictional excuses that Massa is suffering from undiagnosed mental or psychological damage. Thats just ridiculous. Give Massa te redbull and Kimi and he will look just like he did in 2008.

[tarrant]

[quote="Maidel]
I think it has taken 5% off everything he does (Cracknels injury has taken about 50% off!0 and that 5% is the difference between the top and mid field or lower.[/quote]

According to Ferrari his peformance tests results are unchanged. You dont think they would have tested him to make sure he was 100% before extending his contract?

[tarrant]

Exactly. The guy was championship material, what we are seeing now is not characteristic of the old Massa. Kimi can't be that bad that Alonso would destroy the guy who was whooping him for 2 years.

Yes he was championship material in the fastest car. So what? History is full of average drivers who were stars because of dominant cars. And yes Kimi is that bad. Some people are just clearly in denial about how good Alonso is. He is the type of driver that comes along once a decade, the type of driver that eats felipe massa's for breakfest. Senna and Schumacher and Prost totally outclassed drivers of Massa's calibre over their careers so why cant Alonso? He can and is doing so. I remmeber when everyone bagged fisichella when he was being destroyed, when he was a proven fast driver who destroyed all of his highly rated team mates, like button and massa. People try to rewrite history when it suits them, and then it bites them on the ass eventually. I always knew Fisichella was a good driver and he was infact close to Alonso than Massa is.

[ringo]

He melted Kimi Raikonens bum in 2008 and 2009, so it's not about Alonso being relatively better, unless kimi is crap.
Alonso fans wish Massa was the same, but he isn't. He is simply not driving the car in the same way even if we ignore Alonso.
Massa was a very fast driver, never one to under-perform in the car, and outclassing the fin in many a race.

Mass has some kind of damage, and we might only hear about it when he leaves ferrari or retires from the sport.
Brazilian footballer ronaldo had a thyroid problem which directly affected his endurance and fitness and he never said a word about it till he retired. He soaked up all the "fatman" criticisms, without even saying that his thyroid condition was the reason for his fitness.

I think Massa and Ferrari are hiding something and they may give him an honorable discharge when his contract is up.

[donskar]

He melted Kimi Raikonens bum in 2008 and 2009, so it's not about Alonso being relatively better, unless kimi is crap.
Alonso fans wish Massa was the same, but he isn't. He is simply not driving the car in the same way even if we ignore Alonso.
Massa was a very fast driver, never one to under-perform in the car, and outclassing the fin in many a race.

Mass has some kind of damage, and we might only hear about it when he leaves ferrari or retires from the sport.
Brazilian footballer ronaldo had a thyroid problem which directly affected his endurance and fitness and he never said a word about it till he retired. He soaked up all the "fatman" criticisms, without even saying that his thyroid condition was the reason for his fitness.

I think Massa and Ferrari are hiding something and they may give him an honorable discharge when his contract is up.

Excellent post, IMHO. Yes, Massa was a very fast driver. I believe the accident has reduced him to "merely" a fast driver: dropped from top 5 to top 10.

Alonso is faster, always has been. And Massa has never been praised for mental toughness. Having to compete with Alonso is beyond his physical, mental, and psychological abilities.

Add to that the final and most important point: the injury. I doubt that Ferrari and Massa are hiding something, but I agree that the effect on Massa is not necessarily physical and "visible". Few of you will remember Stirling Moss, often considered to be the greatest driver who never won a WDC. He had a horrible racing accident, (ironically, shortly before he was to join the Ferrari F1 team). He made a complete physical recovery, but was never the same driver again. None of us can know what impact Massa's accident had on him. As perceptively noted by another poster, if Massa has lost just 1% of his skill (whether through physical or psychological damage doesn't matter) then he will no longer be able to compete at the very highest level.