2012 Abu Dhabi GP - Yas Marina

[LionKing]

safety car only closed the gap between him and Button; the difference is only one place.

Surely if there had been no safety cars then Button would have been a minute or so further down the road?

Vettel was 13.9 seconds behind Button just before the first safety car. After the first race lap following the restart, he was 10.8 seconds behind Button. He did not make a lot of time but he went backwards so he needed to overtake the same cars again....

I think anybody who wants can start from pit lane. They don't have to stop on track for it as long as they are fine with starting from the back.

[Phil]

If your goal is to prove that Alonso is better than Vettel because he managed to overtake Button faster/better, you proved it.That is still easy and simple overtaking on the straight with DRS.

Except Alonso did it before the DRS was even activated in the race, while Seb needed multiple laps and multiple DRSs to get by him.

I believe that was the actual point.

And I believe this was answered numerous times (although pretty much ignored by those repeating it over and over again...) in that 1.) Button was within Alonso's DRS, so any advantage Vettel had using his DRS was nullfied until Alonso pulled ahead - and 2.) Vettel's set-up changes for a higher top-speed ment he had an advantage over the many back-markers and mid-fielders he had to pass, but would be at a slight-disadvantage to the front-running cars like Button as his set-up ment his cornering ability leading up to the DRS zone was compromised. As a 3rd point, I would also mention that I think Vettel was less desperate to pass Button than Alonso was when he passed him earlier in the race. It's Vettels WDC to lose, not the other way around.

[Phil]

No, the first safety car allowed him to close up a large gap and then have very little time period punishment for a pit stop of his own making. This pushed him onto a strategy where he could make the same amount of further pit stops as the guys in front with far fresher tyres.

It's an interesting argument...

If Vettel didn't crash into that billboard when avoiding Ricciardo, then he could have kept his place and then, yes, he would have been further up the grid and could have progressed through the field quicker.

Vettel did crash into that billboard however, so he had to pit for a new nose, which also ment a fresh option tyre way ahead of schedule which also ment he would need to pit again later in the race. Instead of keeping his position, he fell right back again and had to overtake all those cars again. So while the gap to the leader may have been reduced at *that* point, he lost a lot of time by having to overtake the same backmarkers he had earlier again.

If you look at the two scenarios, I think you will find Vettel nullfied the 'advantage of the first safety car' all on his own when crashing into that billboard. It's difficult to judge how costly that pitstop under safety car really was. I think he's progress until the first safety car was already extraordinary - he was what, 12th, when running behind Ricciardo under the safety car? Surely without the safety cars, he would have still been able to make up a lot of places, though perhaps the gap to the front-runners may have been a bit too big to recover under normal conditions. We would need to look at lap times to see how much time he was making up relativ to the others.

[FoxHound]

So he crashes his front wing twice, and the pitstop (under safety car conditions) allows him to change front wing AND tyres ....which meant he lost no track time in relation to the leaders, other than have cars 2.5/3 seconds a lap slower in front of him, and you say there is no advantage gained by Vettel?

[turbof1]

safety car only closed the gap between him and Button; the difference is only one place.

Surely if there had been no safety cars then Button would have been a minute or so further down the road?

Anyway the thing that gets me is being allowed to change the car so much. In future if a team has a problem and it looks like they'll not get through P3, they simply need to park the car on track with no fuel and they're allowed to completely reconfigure the car?

It's way too difficult to tell what would have happened if both safety cars didn't came out. I absolutely can't make any comment on that; too many "if this"s and "if that"s. However, assuming the second one stayed out, he wouldn't have that much more advantage: he wasn't that far behind and because he was on fresher, softer tyres, he would have closed that gap anyway.
It would be difficult to tell what would have happened if the first safety car didn't came out. He wouldn't needed to come in for a new front wing and new tyres, so he would have ended up in the position where he made up places because others had to make pitstops due their soft tyres going off. He would have been able to push through alot longer, and when he came out he would have been on the fresher, softer tyres anyhow. Where he would have fit in after that first, and only, pitstop is impossible to tell.

[FoxHound]

Vettel was 13.9 seconds behind Button just before the first safety car. After the first race lap following the restart, he was 10.8 seconds behind Button. He did not make a lot of time but he went backwards so he needed to overtake the same cars again.... .

So he gained 3 seconds and a free pitstop in exchange for having HRTs, Caterhams, Marussia's and 2 Torro Rosso's ahead of him.....Cars that are so slow they jumped out his way at the mere site of it....Riciardo's "after you sire" move that let Vettel through was indicative of these cars "ahead" of Vettel.
If anything he probably gained time by slipstreaming them all....

[gato azul]

Anyway the thing that gets me is being allowed to change the car so much.
In future if a team has a problem and it looks like they'll not get through P3, they simply need to park the car on track with no fuel and they're allowed to completely reconfigure the car?

No need to park the car or fake a issue, just opted to break the parc fermè rules and start from pitlane as a consequence - simple.
It's an option open to all teams at any time, and has been, that teams don't take the option, can be interpreted as either being a bit "unimaginative" (not much outside the box thinking, if they stuff up their Qualifying for one reason or another) or it indicates that in general it is not perceived as an advantage.

Not sure why their is such a big fuss about it? The rule has been their for a while and anyone could have used it, if they
feel it would give them an advantage (Hamilton in Spain for example).
Same goes for a gear ratio change, the penalty is 5 grid places if you change the ratio later then 2 hours after FP2 has finished (after FP3 for example).
Now if you decide to change after Qualifying, you will most likely need to violate the parc fermè rule as well, so starting from pit lane is the more serve penalty, which will fit the "crime" (change of ratio) anyway.

What would you like to see?
People getting shot in front of the main grand stand or tared and feathered on live TV?

34.5 If a competitor modifies any part on the car or makes changes to the set‐up of the suspension
whilst the car is being held under parc fermé conditions the relevant driver must start the race
from the pit lane and follow the procedures laid out in Article 38.2.

[CHT]

Vettel was 13.9 seconds behind Button just before the first safety car. After the first race lap following the restart, he was 10.8 seconds behind Button. He did not make a lot of time but he went backwards so he needed to overtake the same cars again.... .

So he gained 3 seconds and a free pitstop in exchange for having HRTs, Caterhams, Marussia's and 2 Torro Rosso's ahead of him.....Cars that are so slow they jumped out his way at the mere site of it....Riciardo's "after you sire" move that let Vettel through was indicative of these cars "ahead" of Vettel.
If anything he probably gained time by slipstreaming them all....

Have you done any calculation on how much time vettel took to regain the position he held prior to his first unschedule pit stop?

[Phil]

Vettel was 13.9 seconds behind Button just before the first safety car. After the first race lap following the restart, he was 10.8 seconds behind Button. He did not make a lot of time but he went backwards so he needed to overtake the same cars again.... .

So he gained 3 seconds and a free pitstop in exchange for having HRTs, Caterhams, Marussia's and 2 Torro Rosso's ahead of him.....Cars that are so slow they jumped out his way at the mere site of it....Riciardo's "after you sire" move that let Vettel through was indicative of these cars "ahead" of Vettel.
If anything he probably gained time by slipstreaming them all....

It wasn't free - instead of pitting once (as by his original plan), he had to pit twice over the duration of the race (every pit-stop costing about 20 seconds - and his nose change cost him a bit around 6~ seconds more than an normal tyre-change stop). I'm also not sure if you're implying here - are you implying that those 8 or 9 cars that he found himself behind after pitting (Grosjean among others, I think) during that safety car didn't cost him any time (in relation to the leaders) at all - compared to if there wasn't a safety car at all and he would have stayed in the position he was in?

Perhaps there was a benefit, but it's certainly not to the overwhelming extend you are making it out to be. It will be interesting if someone pulls out the laptimes Vettel did when re-overtaking those backmarkers and midfielders for the second time and compare them what kind of lap times he was doing in clean air and/or relative to the leaders.

IMO - I think you are underestimating how much time it costs to overtake cars - regardless if they are back-markers or mid-fielders. Considering he had to repass 8 or so cars (although I think some of them may have pitted by the time he reached them) - even if they only cost him a 1 second per lap that would still amount to 8 seconds. And with the pace Vettel was driving, I'm sure it would have been more than a second he lost per car he overtook. It isn't as if they were waving blue flags at them or the drivers pulling to the side by their free choice and waving Vettel through - well with the exception of maybe Vergne.

[Intego]

OK, here's the lap analysis: FIA lap anlysis
Vettel's two stops effectively were better than one under normal conditions. The first one was with small effect on the lap time:
Lap 13:
Vettel 2:35.975
Button 2:37.781
Alonso 2:37.974
Räikkönen 2:38.078

Vettel pits, then lap 14:
Vettel 2:37.771
Button 2:32.400
Alonso 2:33.298
Räikkönen 2:33.133

Vettel lost about 4 or 5 seconds due to the pit stop. But the next few laps Vettel lost about 5 seconds due to backmarker overtaking.

Vettel pitted again on lap 37, then lap 38:
Vettel 2:04.260
Button 1:46.144
Alonso 1:45.881
Räikkönen 1:46.210

Lap 39, when SC was deployed:
Vettel 2:11.756
Button 2:11.897
Alonso 2:06.803
Räikkönen 2:06.281

Lap 40:
Vettel 2:15.844
Button 2:29.164
Alonso 2:34.730
Räikkönen 2:42.390

So Vettel lost about 18 s du to his 2nd pit stop and gained 13 s (on Button) in lap 40.

Overall you can say that Vettels pitting cost him about 14 s, whereas all others lost about 18 s. A SC induced net gain of 4 s, am I right?

[turbof1]

It wasn't free - instead of pitting once (as by his original plan), he had to pit twice over the duration of the race (every pit-stop costing about 20 seconds - and his nose change cost him a bit around 6~ seconds more than an normal tyre-change stop). I'm also not sure if you're implying here - are you implying that those 8 or 9 cars that he found himself behind after pitting (Grosjean among others, I think) during that safety car didn't cost him any time (in relation to the leaders) at all - compared to if there wasn't a safety car at all and he would have stayed in the position he was in?

Now it did not cost him 26 seconds. He was in the pits 26 seconds, but in that time he also traveled a part of the track. The net loss never is the time you are in the pit straight, it is always less. The time he had to stay still, now that indeed is a net loss. He lost almost 10 seconds with that (changing tyres + new FW). Then you need to calculate how much slower he travels then the rest and by that you can find the total net loss.

[Phil]

Intego, thanks for that.

I'm a bit new to this sort of analysis, so what do those numbers suggest? The above discussion has now progressed to the point, if Vettel nullfied the "safety-car" advantage by having to pit for a new nose. The way I see it, the disadvantage of pitting under safety car put him back behind many cars he had already overtaken, losing more time, with less laps to go.

It also added another disadvantage in the form of him having to pit again. That cost him at least 20 seconds compared to the others who only pitted once - though to be fair, he was able to run a quicker pace due to fresher tyres and a double stint on the option tyre. I was under the impression however that the difference between the option and the prime-tyre wasn't that big in Yas Marina - or was that only in regards to McLaren?

In anycase - yes - I'm sure the safety car did benefit Vettel overal - at the very least, it reduced the gap to Button in the later stages of the race - no argument there. I'm really interested in the analysis if the first safety car and his out-of-schedule-pit-stop was to his advantage. I would think the pit-stop (and the necessary pitstop) and the having to retake many positions should have balanced his advantage to some degree.

Regardless if Vettel drove brilliantly or not - I think the race does show what impressive pace the Red Bull has in its current form. I think it would have been nice to see how Vettel would have performed under normal race conditions if he had started from 3rd against Hamilton (without his technical issue) under normal race conditions. I think it would have been quite interesting.

[Phil]

Now it did not cost him 26 seconds. He was in the pits 20 seconds, but in that time he also traveled a part of the track. The net loss never is the time you are in the pit straight, it is always less. The time he had to stay still, now that indeed is a net loss. He lost almost 10 seconds with that (changing tyres + new FW).

So how much is the net loss? I used the 20 seconds figure because that's what I remember Coulthard saying during the BBC broadcast - that a pit-stop at Yas Marina costs about 20 seconds. If you have a more accurate or precise figure, please post it.

Even if the net-loss is 18 seconds (for a normal tyre-pitstop), doesn't really change the point I'm trying to make however. Fact is - what ever the net-loss is - the nose change cost him around 6 seconds more and the pit-stop then ment he would have to pit later. The only advantage of a two stop was that he could drive more agressively with fresher tyres. But how much of an advantage was that considering the places he had to make up again?

[turbof1]

Now it did not cost him 26 seconds. He was in the pits 20 seconds, but in that time he also traveled a part of the track. The net loss never is the time you are in the pit straight, it is always less. The time he had to stay still, now that indeed is a net loss. He lost almost 10 seconds with that (changing tyres + new FW).

So how much is the net loss? I used the 20 seconds figure because that's what I remember Coulthard saying during the BBC broadcast - that a pit-stop at Yas Marina costs about 20 seconds. If you have a more accurate or precise figure, please post it.

Even if the net-loss is 18 seconds (for a normal tyre-pitstop), doesn't really change the point I'm trying to make however. Fact is - what ever the net-loss is - the nose change cost him around 6 seconds more and the pit-stop then ment he would have to pit later. The only advantage of a two stop was that he could drive more agressively with fresher tyres. But how much of an advantage was that considering the places he had to make up again?

I think a net loss of about 16 seconds could be for a normal pit stop; a rough guess.

[Phillyred]

I'm in no way a Vettel "fanboy," but I believe Seb is massively talented and at the same time has a massively talented team surrounding him. Webber has the same tools at his disposal and yet Vettel is most likely going to win his 3rd consecutive WDC this year. There may be "better" drivers out there in the purist sense, but it bothers me how people are quick dismiss Vettel's impressive drives as just good luck and having the quickest car in the field.