Is Hamilton desperate or what?

[zeph]

I've had experience of a high maintenance girlfriend before and I can't recommend it for anyone. It really did my head in. Fun at the start then you find you are completely stuck and someone has pinched the escape ladder!

Sorry to hear that, mate.

Sure she is a looker but if you look past that, there ain't anything there.

Don't judge a book by its cover. She could be an amazing person. Or not. But who cares? I know I would jump at the chance of a casual encounter!

[Just_a_fan]

I think that Hamilton attracts somewhat more opprobrium whenever he gets even close to being less than perfect. Alonso has been the victim of derision because of the team order issue but even then there's hardly been the level of obvious contempt that seems to be directed at Hamilton at each race.

I think you are reading too much into it. Every successful driver gets flak. Hamilton is no exception. Not in the amount of flak shot at him, nor in the nature of the flak being shot.

Maybe you're right.

The problem is that it's still such a tricky thing for many people to discuss. I was at a meeting t'other day about "equality" and we had a very good discussion about a number of these "elephant in the room" issues. It does need everyone involved to put their own feelings to one side though.

I raised it here so that other, more important, threads aren't polluted by any fall out.

Perhaps I was wrong to do so but I had hoped an open discussion could be had...ah well.

[jwielage]

As an Alonso fan, I was excited to see the exchange between Mark and Lewis as it directly benefited Fernando. With that said I cannot be painted as a Hamilton fan boy. Further more I happen to like Webber, he seems like a really nice guy when out of the cockpit.

Regarding the incident, the question we should be asking ourselves is how would this incident have played out if these two weren't locked in a Championship battle? Personally I subscribe to the Webber late braking thoery. While Webber cetainly didn't want to take himself out of the race, I believe he would have behaved differently if it was Button, not Lewis attempting the pass.

Webber knew that allowing Lewis to outscore him would be a significant blow to his title hopes. With this in mind he took on a bullish deffensive stance when he was BEHIND on track. He knew that there could be four possible outcomes, three of which would benifit his fight against Lewis.
1. Hamilton backs off, and Webber successfully defends his possition.
2. He takes both of them out of the race.
3. He takes Lewis out of the race.
4. He takes himself out of the race.

Webber's not an idiot, he knew that odds were that he would come out of that conner ahead of Hamilton if he behaved aggressively. Was this a racing manuver? Yes, it was too close to call it anything else. Would it have played out the same if Lewis was passing someone other than Webber? I think not.

Lewis did what we should ask of all of our drivers, race to win and put on a show thats worth the time we spend watching. For that I comend him.

[Just_a_fan]

Nice summary of the incident I think. Both raced hard and both risked the DNF. One lucked in, one lucked out.

[BMW_F1]

overtaking another car on a tight corner like that is not that simple, specially when technically speaking the two cars were still running side by side (Lewis never cleared Webber) . The reason this works in most cases is simply because one driver yields the position in favor of the most aggressive and risk taker driver.
the possible outcomes from the poster above are spot on.. I would have done the exact same thing if I was Webber in that situation..
This is also gaining Webber a physiological advantage over Lewis for the upcoming races, similar to what he did to Vettel in Turkey.. From now on, I think Lewis is going to either continue crashing onto people or simply take less risks and do what Button does..

[ringo]

Race may play a subliminal role. The "haters" may not be racist, but maybe xenophobic.
He's threatening their prized sport, something that belongs to them.
He's too damn good, not the typical looking great driver, and he's overwriting records.
He's like the tiger woods or the sugar ray robinson, guys that appear out of nowhere and then dominate the sport and make it look too easy.
What's more he's going against the stereotypes as it relates to blacks and sports.
Most like to think black sports men/women only use athleticism and brawn to dominate; they can't do technical sports where operating a machine is involved, like a tennis racket or a motorcar. You can call them the elitist sports or country club sports. There is also a class factor more than race factor in this perception.

This is reflected in the journalistic articles; he's arrogant, aggressive, instinctive, wrestles the car as if having no understanding of it.
The "king kong" theory. Never is he calculating, precise or dexterous.

When a serana Williams or a Tiger Woods or a Lewis Hamilton comes in and starts kicking ass; naturally people are going to flip their wigs.

What suprises me about the Webber Lewis accident, is that Webber was passed 2 corners ago. Lewis was completely in front of him; the pass was complete, which was confirmed by Martin Whitmarsh.
Yet people are saying that the guy never left enough room etc. when judging from the Kubica Sutil case, Kubica never even completed the overtake. Sutil was ahead an Kubica chopped infront entangling Sutil's wing and Sutil yeilded.
Yet somehow Kubica is more controlled and Lewis is to dumb and arrogant to notice Webber has no control over his car.
I don't think just a fan is calling all critics racist, but you have to wonder if there is subliminal xenophobia. The incident is clear as day, Webber was the attacking driver, he was the one trying to overtake and failed.

[ringo]

overtaking another car on a tight corner like that is not that simple, specially when technically speaking the two cars were still running side by side (Lewis never cleared Webber) . The reason this works in most cases is simply because one driver yields the position in favor of the most aggressive and risk taker driver.
the possible outcomes from the poster above are spot on.. I would have done the exact same thing if I was Webber in that situation..
This is also gaining Webber a physiological advantage over Lewis for the upcoming races, similar to what he did to Vettel in Turkey.. From now on, I think Lewis is going to either continue crashing onto people or simply take less risks and do what Button does..

He cleared webber. Webber is the attacker here. What can Mark defend if his defense is already breached? You can't defend something if you already lost it.
Webber can't even defend the apex, because it is around the corner and not in his field of vision. He was fighting a lost cause in that turn, we've seen him fight lost causes many times.
Usually when driving on the inside, you have to be at least toe to toe with the attacker to hold off the inside. And the key word is attacker, Hamilton is not the attacker, Webber is; yet he is defending?! Webber was flustered.
Think about it objectively.

[BMW_F1]

That is too close to call it cleared IMO.. And I also believe that good racing etiquette is to give room to your competitors in order to be able to race side by side.. I never like seeing just one line of racing that everyone has to follow as it turns racing into a procession. I've watched many great racing battles from the past where the two drivers ran side by side for several turns and it was only made possible because they took wider turns in order to avoid hitting their competitors..

[ringo]

Answer this objectively, are they side by side?
Who is the attacker?

I hope we have a simliar incident involving anyone but Hamilton, i would like to see the responses and reasoning behind it. It seems to me Hamilton is damned is does and damned if he doesn't. As long as he is involved is, he is at fault.

[BMW_F1]

I don't limit my racing experience to just F1.. In most categories of racing, a driver has not cleared another driver unless 100% of his car is in front. In here, that is not the case..The line you draw still shows Webber's front wing next to Lewis's car which means that if Lewis just swings across he will touch Webber.. This is why the entire car has to be cleared in order for a driver to make a sudden move without getting into an accident.
BTW.. Lewis already kind of admitted it was his mistake for not seeing where Webber was and assuming that the corner was 100% his.

[vall]

overtaking another car on a tight corner like that is not that simple, specially when technically speaking the two cars were still running side by side (Lewis never cleared Webber) . The reason this works in most cases is simply because one driver yields the position in favor of the most aggressive and risk taker driver.
the possible outcomes from the poster above are spot on.. I would have done the exact same thing if I was Webber in that situation..
This is also gaining Webber a physiological advantage over Lewis for the upcoming races, similar to what he did to Vettel in Turkey.. From now on, I think Lewis is going to either continue crashing onto people or simply take less risks and do what Button does..

He cleared webber. Webber is the attacker here. What can Mark defend if his defense is already breached? You can't defend something if you already lost it.
Webber can't even defend the apex, because it is around the corner and not in his field of vision. He was fighting a lost cause in that turn, we've seen him fight lost causes many times.
Usually when driving on the inside, you have to be at least toe to toe with the attacker to hold off the inside. And the key word is attacker, Hamilton is not the attacker, Webber is; yet he is defending?! Webber was flustered.
Think about it objectively.

This is just before the corner. We all now that the guy that has the inner line has to travel shorter path to take the turn (that's why in 200m sprint in athletics the guys on the outer lane start ahead). So, then they arrive at the apex LH has not cleared MW.

[Paul]

This is motor racing, ideal line is not the inside line. Inside line forces you to brake earlier and carry less speed through the corner. If you brake at the same time or later than the driver on the ideal line, you don't make the corner. You can force the driver on the ideal line to concede position to avoid a crash, but if you come from too far behind he might not realise you are there.

[BMW_F1]

Ideal line does not mean that drivers are forced to take that line..
Geez! some of you guys should be watching these races instead of the real thing..

[hollus]

@Ringo:
Hamilton is taking now the same kind of flak all successful sportsmen do. It is a complex issue and he as a person has many sides, like all people do, but 99% of the people think he is, well, bloody fast!
I see a lot of "country-ism" and "team-ism" in all this discussions, but regarding races, I feel I speak for most people in this board when I say that the only races we care about are the ones happening every 2 weekends or so.

[BMW_F1]

All drivers, regardless of how successful they are have been criticized - Lewis is no exception. Not too long ago, people were criticizing Alonso's uncharacteristic mistakes.