Is Hamilton desperate or what?

[jwielage]

There are 2 basic faults in your analysis.
First you assume that when vall said "he had nothing to loose" he meant something else.
Then you assume that all outcomes have nearly equal probability, which is not true. Mark was damn lucky to get a most improbable outcome. You also forget one possible outcome. Getting penalized.
In the end Mark was probably not thinking straight, red mist and all, and is 100% to blame for causing an accident. Should be penalized, but he's groomed it seems for champion this year, after Vettel screwed it up with his childish antics and reckless driving.
The end.

Also, Webber was still faster than the McLarens at that point (especially without the damage he took), he could have gotten in good position to push for a pass on next turn (or laps). Or you know, keep the 4th place, not bad, still ahead in championship. What he did was foolish and damn lucky. Not a good choice as some here have tried to pass it as.

Fair enough, there are cetainly flaws to my logic as I've presented it. With that said, my only intention was to suggest that Mark was acting a bit more "calculated" than simply racing for that corner. You are right, my analysis was by no means comprehensive, but neither would have MW's to the extent that he was behaving as I'm suggesting.

In conclusion I am adimant that the clash would not have occured if the roles were reversed. Thats not to say that Lewis is/isnt a better driver than Mark, mearly that MW's incentives at that point in time could lead to some dubious behavior.

All in all, this isn't about Webber/Lewis being a terrible driver. Its about a situational moment that we'd be hard pressed to find direct comparables for. Furthermore, I think we all just want to keep this event alive because we cannot wait for Suzuka and there is only so much new material on other websites.

[andrew]

^^I see what you are saying but I think that there would have still been contact of some sort if the positions were reversed. Both drivers have been involved in contact in similar situations in the past. Add to that, they are both in with a shout for the championship there would be no quarter given. I think it would have come down to who blinks first and I am not sure which of the 2 would blink first. Either way, both will be on it in Japan to make ammends. I'm not a fan of Webber or Hamilton but it will be an epic battle in the remaining races.

[vall]

If Hamilton had taken Massa out in Monza and not himself, would people be saying Massa was at fault for not giving room or that Hamilton should get a penalty? What about the stewards? [-X
Hell even Vettel got penalties for similar things.
Webber and Schumacher should be penalized for Singapore.

How both accidents happened is similar (front wheel hits the rate one) the circumstances were different. In Monza Massa was ahead and LH was attacking. In Singapore LH attached and MW defended, but at no point LH cleared MW. Meaning LH was not in front of MW. If you draw a line at some point before the turn LH's car was ahead, true, but not in front. Come the apex MW was in and LH turned in.

to answer the other question, yes, by "had nothing to loose" I meant relative to LH. Of course if he takes himself out he loses 15pts to Alonso and Vettel.

[liveforf1]

Hello everyone. First time poster but frequent visitor.

I have to agree with Champion on this issue. There is no way we would ever judge Weber to be correct if he attempted to pass another driver in this manner. You cannot defend a pass after it has occurred. Lewis was by him and what he did was a professional foul. If both cars were written off he would still enjoy the same position, which would be the points lead. Lewis on the other hand had to take that attempt. The slipstream he had on Weber gave him almost no choice. He was clearly past Weber.

[aral]

Hello everyone. First time poster but frequent visitor.

He was clearly past Weber.

Can you reference pictures to show that Hamilton was "clearly past" Webber? After all, if he hit Webber, then he could not have been "clearly" ahead.

[Gerhard Berger]

Hello everyone. First time poster but frequent visitor.

I have to agree with Champion on this issue. There is no way we would ever judge Weber to be correct if he attempted to pass another driver in this manner. You cannot defend a pass after it has occurred. Lewis was by him and what he did was a professional foul. If both cars were written off he would still enjoy the same position, which would be the points lead. Lewis on the other hand had to take that attempt. The slipstream he had on Weber gave him almost no choice. He was clearly past Weber.

Actually if both cars went out Alonso would be leading the championship and Vettel and Button (in addition to Hamilton) would have been right on Webber's tail.

[BMW_F1]

people, please stop posting Lewis had cleared Webbed when he clearly did not.. Vettel had not cleared Webbed in Turkey and he swerved left and crashed.. same thing here.. Webber is under no obligation to lift.. Racing hard requires that the two drivers give each other room in order to race side by side.. This is not qualifying anymore is racing..

[ringo]

You don't have to clear someone to be ahead of them. No such rule. The focus is on who is attacking. This "cleared" arguement is sidetracking and is disingenuous.

There are many examples even in the same race, where passes have been completed without one driver clearing the other.

Did Kubica clear Sutil?
Did he turn in anyway?
Did sutil yeild?

You see the bias now?

from autosport

Hamilton believes his Singapore DNF was more a consequent of misfortune than misjudgement.

"I've already said that I was probably a bit too opportunistic in Monza; but, in Singapore, I've seen the replay and I was half a car-length ahead of Mark, and on the racing line," he said.

[f1ssk]

Could Hamilton have done anything different ? there is quite a bit of run off area at that turn and he could have carried more speed through the turn. Could he have taken the wide line ? but would he be penalized for that ? just a thought ...

[BMW_F1]

Could Hamilton have done anything different ? there is quite a bit of run off area at that turn and he could have carried more speed through the turn. Could he have taken the wide line ? but would he be penalized for that ? just a thought ...

what do you mean? .. all he had to do was not chop the corner the way that he did and that would've been it.. A sense of awareness would have taken care of this issue, but just like Vettel in Turkey he either expected Webber to vanish by lifting or was careless..

[ringo]

Clearing him wouldn't make any difference. Hamilton car was under braking, Webber would have punted him in the back when Hamilton turned in.
Why ignore the fact that Webber locked up?
Locking up means the car doesn't stop like it's supposed to, it goes on. Therefore it would go on to hit the Mclaren if it was directly in front.

Give up man.. Webber admitted he was at fault. Hamilton watched the replay, said he was not at fault. Whitmarsh watched the replayed and said Lewis was right.
Give up Hami Hater, show's over.

[ringo]

Look how much room is there! more than 1.5 car widths to go around, the guy didn't even go on the curbs!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynKdsG_1Pwk[/youtube]
If webber was in control, he would have made it. But hey the car was locked up so he couldn't turn in. Typical of when you brake too late, you miss the apex!!

[horse]

the guy didn't even go on the curbs!

Ay?

[andrew]

From the picture above the gap is narrowed by the car ahead turning in but I still maintain that there are faults on both sides and that the racing incident call is correct, but what's done is done and cannot be changed. Should set up a good battle for the next couple of races.

As for not using the kerbs, well they shouldn't be using them anyway as the white line signifies the edge of the track. A good analogy that Anthony Davidson has used in his commentary is to image there is a brick wall on the white line as in effect there is (an imaginary one I hasten to add).

[liveforf1]

Hamilton car was under braking, Webber would have punted him in the back when Hamilton turned in.

This has to be the salient point of this whole manoeuvre. If Weber were the attacking driver he would have gotten the "bonehead" move of the race vote. He had no chance of making that corner.


Not a fan of processional races. Guys have to get back to the sporting nature. It can't always be "I'll take you out as the only option". I remember Maranello a few years back when Alonso defended from a charging Schumacher with class. The cars are not the only reason we have no overtaking, its the unsportsmanlike conduct of drivers.