Is Hamilton desperate or what?

[Tamburello]

Hamilton car was under braking, Webber would have punted him in the back when Hamilton turned in.

This has to be the salient point of this whole manoeuvre. If Weber were the attacking driver he would have gotten the "bonehead" move of the race vote. He had no chance of making that corner.

Webber had the inside line. The onus is now on the guy on the outside to not turn into him, allowing for enough room at the apex for both cars, a la Kubica who turned in later from a wider angle and pointing his car towards the right hand side of the road on exit, thus giving plenty of room at apex and exit for Sutil to not clutter into him or vice versa. Hence Lewis' 'blind spot' admittance.

Hamilton was not far enough ahead of Webber to claim that he had already passed him and Webber braked late unreasonably and took him out from behind, as in Melbourne.

This incident is more akin to Vettel's move on Webber at Istanbul, where he turned into Webber when the latter is simply holding his line, having only just edged ahead. A sure recipe for a collision.

[raymondu999]

Actually, I just realized that. This move is quite similar to Vettel's in Turkey in terms of dynamics. A nose ahead, then turns in/out onto the other guy (in this case both Webber)

[aral]

He had no chance of making that corner.

If he had no chance of making the corner, then he wouldnt have! But he DID.

the u-tube shots answer my previous question, Hamilton was NEVER clear ahead.

[PlatinumZealot]

Lets behave like real engineers and do the calculations. This is a momentum problem.

we can calculate how much space should have been given to Webber so that contact with Hamilton's tyre transfers ZERO momentum.

You all saw how far Hamilton's car flew right? Do you think the front tyres on Webbers car could handle that energy? And in how many meters of track space?

Answer this question and you will see that Even if Hamilton gave Webber as much space as possible, the trajectory of Both drivers would have intersected. There was no way webber was making that turn and leave 2m to the outside of the track.

Lets see who can calculate It!

[PlatinumZealot]

He had no chance of making that corner.

If he had no chance of making the corner, then he wouldnt have! But he DID.

the u-tube shots answer my previous question, Hamilton was NEVER clear ahead.

No no no.. Lets take this one step at a time.
Hamilton entered the braking zone with Webber's front wheel at Hamilton's rear, correct?
Am I wrong or right?





Webber is off the racing line, wrong or right?

[Tamburello]

He had no chance of making that corner.

If he had no chance of making the corner, then he wouldnt have! But he DID.

the u-tube shots answer my previous question, Hamilton was NEVER clear ahead.

No no no.. Lets take this one step at a time.
Hamilton entered the braking zone with Webber's front wheel at Hamilton's rear, correct?
Am I wrong or right?

Approximately, yes...but so what?

Webber is off the racing line, wrong or right?

What has the 'racing line' got to do with anything? It is only of relevance when it comes to clearing back-markers or those not hot laps in quali. The whole road, from line to line is fit to be used during a race.

Webber had one wheel off outside the white line on the inside curb. That suggests that there was plenty of room to the right for another car if Hamilton hadn't turned in so sharply, as proven by Kubica who took a wider line and turned in later.

[aral]

No no no.. Lets take this one step at a time.
Hamilton entered the braking zone with Webber's front wheel at Hamilton's rear, correct?
Am I wrong or right?

Approximately, yes...but so what?


What has the 'racing line' got to do with anything? It is only of relevance when it comes to clearing back-markers or those not hot laps in quali. The whole road, from line to line is fit to be used during a race.

Webber had one wheel off outside the white line on the inside curb. That suggests that there was plenty of room to the right for another car if Hamilton hadn't turned in so sharply, as proven by Kubica who took a wider line and turned in later.[/quote]

If you look closely, the red line is not accurate, as it is drawn at an angle to Hamiltons car. the camera angle is very oblique so it is difficult to see where the cars are. But if you draw a line across the tops of the two rear wheels of Hamiltons car, the line ends up in Wemmers cockpit. So if you are using a drawn line to position the two cars, it is best to ensure that it is accurate.
Re racing line. Being on the racing line does not automatically give you the right to a corner! Nearly all passes are made by drivers cutting inside a person on the racing line.

ps. I seem to have deleted parts of previous post, but I am agreeing with tumbarello

[lolzi]

overtaking another car on a tight corner like that is not that simple, specially when technically speaking the two cars were still running side by side (Lewis never cleared Webber) . The reason this works in most cases is simply because one driver yields the position in favor of the most aggressive and risk taker driver.
the possible outcomes from the poster above are spot on.. I would have done the exact same thing if I was Webber in that situation..
This is also gaining Webber a physiological advantage over Lewis for the upcoming races, similar to what he did to Vettel in Turkey.. From now on, I think Lewis is going to either continue crashing onto people or simply take less risks and do what Button does..

He cleared webber. Webber is the attacker here. What can Mark defend if his defense is already breached? You can't defend something if you already lost it.
Webber can't even defend the apex, because it is around the corner and not in his field of vision. He was fighting a lost cause in that turn, we've seen him fight lost causes many times.
Usually when driving on the inside, you have to be at least toe to toe with the attacker to hold off the inside. And the key word is attacker, Hamilton is not the attacker, Webber is; yet he is defending?! Webber was flustered.
Think about it objectively.

As you write yourself, the apex is "around the corner", which means to the left of the drivers. If you are going to try and draw a line like that, it should be a right angle to the line between the car and the apex. The line should not tilt downwards to the right, but to the left.

[PlatinumZealot]

The road markings and surrenings is of no consequence... the curb and bounary's of the turn are though.

The line joining webber' and hamilton's cars should be perpendicular to the racing line. Since the fastest way through is on the racing line. The racing line is the imaginary line joining Kubica, Rosberg, Button, Di grassi and Hamilton. That makes webber even further behind!

[Just_a_fan]

[...]

[DaveKillens]

There's a lot of discussion around this one picture. I have two questions. At the instant the picture was taken, how fast was Mr Hamilton going, and how fast was Webber? Second question, had Mr Hamilton cleared Webber, and if so, by how much, one meter, one centimeter, two meters?

The answer to both questions is .. we don't know, we can only guess. So unless someone can state something like .. "Mr Hamilton was going 232.9 kph, and Webber 233.4kph and Mr Hamilton's rear tire was 1.3 meters ahead of Webber's front tire", this picture isn't worth discussion.

These guys are racing, they are supposed to contest each and every millimeter with their opponents. If a driver fights back,hip, hip, hooray for them, that's what we want to see.

My impression is that an aggressive pass was met with an aggressive defence. But at the moment of collision Webber's left front tire was straddling the curb, which indicates Webber left a lot of room for Mr Hamilton, who chose instead to chop the corner and thus initiate the contact.

[BMW_F1]

Webber is off the racing line, wrong or right?

Webber is off the "racing" line but so what.. ?.. drivers should be encouraged to take different lines in order to pass cars or defend.

[Belatti]

Webber is off the racing line, wrong or right?

Webber is off the "racing" line but so what.. ?.. drivers should be encouraged to take different lines in order to pass cars or defend.

The racing line is inbound the black stuff, many many times called "tarmac".

[PlatinumZealot]

Webber is off the racing line, wrong or right?

Webber is off the "racing" line but so what.. ?.. drivers should be encouraged to take different lines in order to pass cars or defend.

You are not seeing where I am going with this... goooood...

Now where did they collide at the turn entry or exit? before or after the apex?

[BMW_F1]

your point does not make any sense because you assume that a corner is given to just one driver.. when that is never the case. Two cars can go through a turn side by side, just like Kubica and Sutil..
If a driver chops the corner, then yes, only one driver will make it..but the point in all of this is that drivers are supposed to give each other room..