Why is KERS restricted?

[SZ]

Why they just can't run a spec fuel and a limited volume of it - that's continually diminished as rules progress - noone knows.

Works just fine in MotoGP.

[xpensive]

xpensive... agreed. There's no more 'designing a car for an engine', so no more super-angle vee's and the like. They're all packaged similarly, the idea is that constructors and engine suppliers can swap among each other with relative ease, and no major performance discrepancies owing to packaging are opened up.

Remember when the old Arrows team had to give up that b***h of a Porsche V12 midseason to accomodate a DFR, or when McLaren built a Lamborghini-engined test-hack?

[timbo]

Why they just can't run a spec fuel and a limited volume of it - that's continually diminished as rules progress - noone knows.

Works just fine in MotoGP.

There was a press release by FIA that seemed to propose just that.

[danceman]

The FIA are missing a great opportunity to get back at the teams that are snubbing their attempts at making F1 greener. They should bring in an immediate rule change at least doubling the amount of power KERs is allowed. Maybe make it unrestricted? That would revolutionise F1 at a time it needs bringing into the real world. Where oil fuelled cars only have a few years left! How long till the first electric F1 car? Maybe the should run a 10 lap Electric only event at each F1 meeting?

[Giblet]

There are many engaging threads already dealing with this exact conversation. Use the forum search feature to find them.

Here are some of many:

Why is KERS restricted?
Is KERS going to be around next year?

In the forums section you can use the search feature, and to get good results, I put KERS in the search field, and told it to look at topic titles only.

Williams, for the record, is already actively marketing and selling it's KERS unit, that never even ran a race. Porsche is looking at it for Le Mans.

Williams Hybrid Power

Happy Hunting!

[Edis]

The FIA are missing a great opportunity to get back at the teams that are snubbing their attempts at making F1 greener. They should bring in an immediate rule change at least doubling the amount of power KERs is allowed. Maybe make it unrestricted? That would revolutionise F1 at a time it needs bringing into the real world. Where oil fuelled cars only have a few years left! How long till the first electric F1 car? Maybe the should run a 10 lap Electric only event at each F1 meeting?

They can make any change they want, as long as the teams have agreed not to use KERS, it doesn't help.

Secondly, it didn't make F1 'greener', it might appear that way, but the teams still used about the same amount of fuel, and additionally, they needed to transport these KERS systems around the globe, which isn't exactly emission free. The lifetime of the battery packs are also short and cause emissions to make.

Oil fuel cars do not have a 'few years left', that's crazy talking. Cars running on oil based fuels will continue to dominate car sales in the nearest decades. There is simply no way to replace oil. Other type of fuels based on biomass, natural gas, coal and others will be used, but they won't replace oil anytime soon.

Electric F1 racing won't happen, it's not good entertainment, and it's not reasonable. Gasoline contain 43MJ/kg, state of the art batteries 0,7 MJ/kg. Even if you compensate for the difference in efficiency, that is 25 times less energy. Of course, it also wouldn't provide an environmental benefit. It's much simpler to say, switch to a second generation biofuel, or biofuel made from biogas.

[autogyro]

The FIA are missing a great opportunity to get back at the teams that are snubbing their attempts at making F1 greener. They should bring in an immediate rule change at least doubling the amount of power KERs is allowed. Maybe make it unrestricted? That would revolutionise F1 at a time it needs bringing into the real world. Where oil fuelled cars only have a few years left! How long till the first electric F1 car? Maybe the should run a 10 lap Electric only event at each F1 meeting?

They can make any change they want, as long as the teams have agreed not to use KERS, it doesn't help.

Secondly, it didn't make F1 'greener', it might appear that way, but the teams still used about the same amount of fuel, and additionally, they needed to transport these KERS systems around the globe, which isn't exactly emission free. The lifetime of the battery packs are also short and cause emissions to make.

Oil fuel cars do not have a 'few years left', that's crazy talking. Cars running on oil based fuels will continue to dominate car sales in the nearest decades. There is simply no way to replace oil. Other type of fuels based on biomass, natural gas, coal and others will be used, but they won't replace oil anytime soon.

Electric F1 racing won't happen, it's not good entertainment, and it's not reasonable. Gasoline contain 43MJ/kg, state of the art batteries 0,7 MJ/kg. Even if you compensate for the difference in efficiency, that is 25 times less energy. Of course, it also wouldn't provide an environmental benefit. It's much simpler to say, switch to a second generation biofuel, or biofuel made from biogas.

Comparing the energy density of batteries with liquid fuel is pointless and misleading.Converting electric energy to kinetic is 60% efficient, converting petrol is barely 30%.
In anycase, we do not see ic engines in F1 of 30 litres capacity the racing is controlled by regulations, as would EV racing so competition would be just as close and demanding.
KERS has already made huge improvments to road alternate energy vehicles from Ferraris to delivery trucks.
The previous poster is trying to sell the fossil greed message from the 19th century just like those who are trying to kill off Toyotas prius and those in Fota who killed Kers. These people have put back sensible development of alternates by at least five years, I hope they are pleased with themselves.

[WhiteBlue]

The FIA are missing a great opportunity to get back at the teams that are snubbing their attempts at making F1 greener. They should bring in an immediate rule change at least doubling the amount of power KERs is allowed.

You sound like a fan who is too young to understand FiA rule making. According to the 2009 Concord agreement the FiA cannot "make" any rule in F1. They can only rubber stamp by their WMSC the decisions that the teams take in the F1 commission. Between 2008 and 2009 there was a short period when no Concord agreement was in place and the FiA could introduce some beneficial rule changes like KERS but even at that time they were seriously castrated by team power such as the infamous Ferrari veto power. In actual fact the old KERS is still allowed according to FiA rules. It will not be used due to team decision. And that shows where the real rule making happens nowadays.

[autogyro]

If FOTA were to force the use of KERS completely out of the rules, then F1 would be a pointless excercise in outdated and obsolete technology running round in never ending technical circles much as aerodynamics already does.
Those who support F1 have two choices, push for KERS and other relevent new technology or watch F1 slowly die as an outdated activity that conflicts with world opinion.
I would love to hear a contrary argument that stands up but I am not holding my breath.

[Giblet]

There are many engaging threads already dealing with this exact conversation. Use the forum search feature to find them.

Here are some of many:

Why is KERS restricted?
Is KERS going to be around next year?

In the forums section you can use the search feature, and to get good results, I put KERS in the search field, and told it to look at topic titles only.

Williams, for the record, is already actively marketing and selling it's KERS unit, that never even ran a race. Porsche is looking at it for Le Mans.

Williams Hybrid Power

Happy Hunting!

[mx_tifoso]

There are many engaging threads already dealing with this exact conversation. Use the forum search feature to find them.

Here are some of many:

Why is KERS restricted?
Is KERS going to be around next year?

In the forums section you can use the search feature, and to get good results, I put KERS in the search field, and told it to look at topic titles only.

Williams, for the record, is already actively marketing and selling it's KERS unit, that never even ran a race. Porsche is looking at it for Le Mans.

Williams Hybrid Power

Happy Hunting!

[Edis]

The FIA are missing a great opportunity to get back at the teams that are snubbing their attempts at making F1 greener. They should bring in an immediate rule change at least doubling the amount of power KERs is allowed. Maybe make it unrestricted? That would revolutionise F1 at a time it needs bringing into the real world. Where oil fuelled cars only have a few years left! How long till the first electric F1 car? Maybe the should run a 10 lap Electric only event at each F1 meeting?

They can make any change they want, as long as the teams have agreed not to use KERS, it doesn't help.

Secondly, it didn't make F1 'greener', it might appear that way, but the teams still used about the same amount of fuel, and additionally, they needed to transport these KERS systems around the globe, which isn't exactly emission free. The lifetime of the battery packs are also short and cause emissions to make.

Oil fuel cars do not have a 'few years left', that's crazy talking. Cars running on oil based fuels will continue to dominate car sales in the nearest decades. There is simply no way to replace oil. Other type of fuels based on biomass, natural gas, coal and others will be used, but they won't replace oil anytime soon.

Electric F1 racing won't happen, it's not good entertainment, and it's not reasonable. Gasoline contain 43MJ/kg, state of the art batteries 0,7 MJ/kg. Even if you compensate for the difference in efficiency, that is 25 times less energy. Of course, it also wouldn't provide an environmental benefit. It's much simpler to say, switch to a second generation biofuel, or biofuel made from biogas.

Comparing the energy density of batteries with liquid fuel is pointless and misleading.Converting electric energy to kinetic is 60% efficient, converting petrol is barely 30%.
In anycase, we do not see ic engines in F1 of 30 litres capacity the racing is controlled by regulations, as would EV racing so competition would be just as close and demanding.
KERS has already made huge improvments to road alternate energy vehicles from Ferraris to delivery trucks.
The previous poster is trying to sell the fossil greed message from the 19th century just like those who are trying to kill off Toyotas prius and those in Fota who killed Kers. These people have put back sensible development of alternates by at least five years, I hope they are pleased with themselves.

Comparing the energy density of liquid fuels with batteries is neccesary as that will explain why batteries are not suitable in all applications. And if you have read my post more carefully, you would have noticed that I did a comparison where I included the difference in efficiency. By the way, one easy way to compare electrical energy with thermal energy is to multiply electrical energy by three; that's usually how the situation is handled in for instance EROI studies.

It doesn't matter how close and demanding you make, it lacks entertainment value and that is what motorsport is; entertainment.

F1 KERS haven't really had any impact in other sectors, well, ok, Williams have managed to sell their flywheel energy storage to Porsche but that is about it.

Basically, F1 KERS is too crude and simple to have any meaningful purpose outside the motorsport arena, and for most motorsports it is just too expensive. Partly because the short battery life which is a direct result on the low weight requirement in F1.

[danceman]

Many good points in replies. Leading me to think short term future might be a petrol/electric car. Smaller engine, could be diesel, driving generator. All drive from electric motors? Most braking by regeneration. Keeping high car weight would not mean unrealistic light weight batteries. This would be driven from the saving in starting fuel weight and smaller tanks. Is this sufficient? Maybe there should there be a minimum mpg leading to a fuel allowance per race to archive this?

[Richard]

Have a look at the previous threads, they answer the questions being asked here.

Why is KERS restricted?
Is KERS going to be around next year?

[Ciro Pabón]

I merged the previous posts in this thread. If youd don't agree, just PM me.