Is Hamilton desperate or what?

[myurr]

If there is a rule saying you can't drive side by side at the pit lane, then Hamilton is at fault too. Is there a rule ?

No (which is irrelevant), but I'm afraid you'll certainly find no ruling that says that a driver who is ahead and has position in the fast part of the pit lane must move over and let a driver behind alongside who wants to get alongside, and who is driving in the slow pitbox lane no less to do it.

Vettel has priority there because he has firm position in the fast lane in the fast lane. That's the long and the short of it.

The stupid thing is that Vettel had nothing to gain by squeezing Hamilton - he was half a car length in front, would have released the speed limiter earlier and pulled cleanly ahead where he could have moved to make sure he had the inside line into turn one.

Everyones gripe with him is that he instead tried to force Hamilton into a crash with the Williams pit equipment. Every other driver in the history of the sport has acted in a sporting and safe manner and left room for the driver on the inside. Vettel himself has benefited from this at least twice in the past.

Vettel didn't need to do anything other than keep left and give Lewis room. He wouldn't have had to slow down or concede anything to him, and he still would have made it into the first corner first. He wouldn't have lost out in anyway by doing so, but instead he decided to try and run another driver off the road. I can only guess at why you're so keen to defend your favorite driver acting like a dick.

I suppose you believe that Schumacher did nothing wrong against Hill and Villeneuve when he crashed into them in 94 and 97 because he was half a car length in front at that time!?

It's never okay to turn into a driver on the apex of a corner if they have no room to get out of the way, it's never okay to push another driver off the track when they're on the straight, and it's never okay to do the same in the pitlane. That is why Vettel was reprimanded by the stewards.

[Remote_Access]

It's pretty clear this is an argument that can't be won by anyone and that it all comes down to opinions.

My interpretation of this whole situation is that it's Vettel fans vs Lewis fans, hoping that victory in this debate will determine the better driver. Ultimately, Lewis won on track and at the remainder of the races this year has demonstrated far greater driving prowess overall, particularly in combat. Unfortunately he needs to develop his strategic thinking a bit.

As for desperation, you could call it that if you wanted to put a negative spin on it, sure. A more positive term would be hunger, but it all depends on the connotation you want to apply.

Whatever it is, and whether you like it or not, surely you can appreciate that F1 would be a fairly pointless sport if people weren't going to be competitive. Senna, Prost, Schumacher and now Hamilton all displayed the same qualities. Vettel may have the killer instinct as well. It's going to be a good few years in F1 as long as the do-gooders don't shut racing like this down (you'd think they want to given the furore over incidents such as China).

I'd like for maybe both sides to the pitlane debate to forget right vs wrong and maybe focus on boring vs exciting. It's hard to see how the incident (and the racing context) is at all boring - it's great sport and the early stages of what will be a legendary rivalry. And the safety nuts can stay at home as far as I am concerned.

[komninosm]

I always loved Mansell ... he was always good for creating drama..they called him lion back then..didn´t they?

Mansell FTW!
(and I don't really like most Brits)
I wish I could see the seasons he raced again. I can't remember much from them
Any ideas?

[Richard]

Does no one here understand "racing incident"? The causation of these things is rarely clear cut.

The incident (and this thread) is just like kids bickering in the playground. You don't listen to endless excuses of "he started it". You tell them to grow up and not get drawn into that scenario again. Then you tell them to shut up and get back to class.

Edit - Thank you mx-tifosi for closing the Chinese GP thread. Can you put this one out of its misery too please?

[komninosm]

A BIT is not quite correct, it was 1/2 car and Vettel was already driving in the right side of the lane. He did not move right to block LH (later he moved a bit to show his ball a bigger ) In this situation, there were 2 optins:

1) LH slows a BIT and lines behind SV
2) SV moves left letting LH drive in the right part of the lane.

I see not reason why 2) should have happened and not 1). After all VS was clearly ahead and by all regs he has the right to choose the racing line and defend his position by not changing direction more than once, which he did not do.

Here's a reason:
SAFETY
Also see every single other similar event. 2004 Montoya vs Rai, 2008 Vettel(!) vs Alonso, 2009 Sutil vs Badoer (ok that's just funny), etc.

Vettel was not clearly ahead, clearly implies full car ahead, not 50% or 75%. The rules say you are not allowed to push another car off track which is EXACTLY what Vettel did. If Hamilton was clearly behind Vettel then Vettel's move would not affect him at all, he would stay in the mid of the lane like normal.
You can only change direction once, but only when the car behind you is fully behind you. You can't change direction and touch wheels. That's crazy. Read the rules again.

[komninosm]

FLC, could you post a ling to these regulations? I can't find that part.

It is in Appendix L, Chapter IV, Article 4. Scroll right to the bottom, page no. 18.

Also, I've found the following article (2.4) in Appendix H:

f) Black and white flag divided diagonally
This flag should be shown once only and is a warning to the driver concerned that he has been reported for unsportsmanlike behaviour.

So did the stewards really do anything in regard to Hamilton's weaving, or showing this flag to a driver is just a technicality following a complaint or report, such as Renault complained?

A photo of the pit entrance in China, To help the discussion a bit more:


I believe the tarmac to the left of the pit entry should be considered as run off area.

Thanks.

About the photo, the first thing to notice is probably the most famous gravel trap in F1 history

We can see the white line that separates the track and the pit entry is the one that runs perpendicularly to the pit entry not parallel to it (it runs parallel to the track). That is the line the rules say must not be crossed except in cases of force majoure (or when pitting). The other line separates the pit entry from off track perhaps or is just decorative/indicative maybe.

[twoshots]

We can see the white line that separates the track and the pit entry is the one that runs perpendicularly to the pit entry not parallel to it (it runs parallel to the track). That is the line the rules say must not be crossed except in cases of force majoure (or when pitting). The other line separates the pit entry from off track perhaps or is just decorative/indicative maybe.

That is incorrect. The rule has been quoted on this forum. There is no explicit mention of the area that we would assume to be 'off-track', only that the kerb is not considered part of the track. Given the stewards rulings in China we can only assume that the lines are for 'guidance'.

To cut the story short they should install a kerb which follows the inside of the white line on the turn in to what becomes the pit lane. That would remove the ambiguity. As it stands now there is a gap wider than a F1 car between the 'apex' of the white line and the 'apex' of the kerb.

[BreezyRacer]

It's never okay to turn into a driver on the apex of a corner if they have no room to get out of the way, it's never okay to push another driver off the track when they're on the straight, and it's never okay to do the same in the pitlane. That is why Vettel was reprimanded by the stewards.

Gee that sounds exactly like what the pit entrance corner pass was!

[Hannah.]

I think the pitlane argument really needs to stop, as some have rightly said it was a split second racing incident, it's happened now, both got a reprimand, nothing anyone can do about it and clearly noones going to agree. The thread is just going round in circles.

Can everyone just agree that we all witnessed a phenomenal race and move on, please? [-o<

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Drive of the day was Rosberg by a country mile!

Button second
Hammy third(brilliant entertainment as ever)

[komninosm]

It's never okay to turn into a driver on the apex of a corner if they have no room to get out of the way, it's never okay to push another driver off the track when they're on the straight, and it's never okay to do the same in the pitlane. That is why Vettel was reprimanded by the stewards.

Gee that sounds exactly like what the pit entrance corner pass was!

In what way?

Did Hamilton turn into Vettel on the apex of a corner? -No, he had the inside.

Did Hamilton push another driver off track when they were on the straight or the pit-lane? -No, only Vettel did it on the pit-lane. Arguably Alonso drove Massa off track too.

I fail to see the resemblance.

[Rob W]

1) LH slows a BIT and lines behind SV
2) SV moves left letting LH drive in the right part of the lane.

I see not reason why 2) should have happened and not 1). After all VS was clearly ahead and by all regs he has the right to choose the racing line...

Here's a good reason why #2 didn't happen: because the designated driving lane isn't wide enough for two cars. It wasn't made that way probably for the reason aptly demonstrated by this incident. Simple.

It doesn't take a genius to work out that it in a practical sense the driver who is on the correct road/path has the right of way over cars which are not. In this case Lewis ought to have yielded to Vettel. Vettel did not make Hamilton drive on the blue 'slow area', Hamilton chose to in some misguided brain-fart that under identical speed-limiting he could somehow gain some advantage by driving there. Everyone involved, drivers included, know it was not intended for cars to drive on that area unless pulling in/out of their pit-box.

Vettel was not clearly ahead, clearly implies full car ahead, not 50% or 75%. The rules say you are not allowed to push another car off track which is EXACTLY what Vettel did. If Hamilton was clearly behind Vettel then Vettel's move would not affect him at all, he would stay in the mid of the lane like normal.

You are trying to apply on-track logic in the pit-lane which I think will just end up in pointless argument.

Again, it doesn't take a genius to tell that in practical thinking, not to mention for safety reasons, Vettel had right of way. It's not anti-Hamilton, not anti-McLaren, nor pro-Vettel etc.. It's simple common sense.

Talk of defending the racing line and being only allowed to make one movement is sort of pointless in the pit-lane where, technically, car positions are determined by factors outside of driver control: the speed-limiting, the responsibility on teams to release a car only when safe (even if it means waiting for a dozen cars to drive past), and the duration of the pit stop itself.

For sure Vettel did the little squeeze, which is why he got the reprimand, but Hamilton ought to have gotten a drive-through in the least. Wait to see pit-lane protocol clarified in the near future to deter this sort of thing.

[vall]

1) LH slows a BIT and lines behind SV
2) SV moves left letting LH drive in the right part of the lane.

I see not reason why 2) should have happened and not 1). After all VS was clearly ahead and by all regs he has the right to choose the racing line...

Here's a good reason why #2 didn't happen: because the designated driving lane isn't wide enough for two cars. It wasn't made that way probably for the reason aptly demonstrated by this incident. Simple.

It doesn't take a genius to work out that it in a practical sense the driver who is on the correct road/path has the right of way over cars which are not. In this case Lewis ought to have yielded to Vettel. Vettel did not make Hamilton drive on the blue 'slow area', Hamilton chose to in some misguided brain-fart that under identical speed-limiting he could somehow gain some advantage by driving there. Everyone involved, drivers included, know it was not intended for cars to drive on that area unless pulling in/out of their pit-box.

+1 exactly, LH chose to drive this way. SV indeed squeeze him a bit, perhaps to reminder LH that he should not do that

[myurr]

You are trying to apply on-track logic in the pit-lane which I think will just end up in pointless argument.

Actually that is exactly where you are going wrong. When we had the first side by side release a few years back I actually argued that it was wrong and should have been punishable, that there shouldn't be any racing in the pit lane etc. I still maintain that the rules should be changed so that this isn't allowed.

However as was pointed out to me at the time the pit lane IS designated as part of the track, and IS governed by the same rules. These rules have not been changed since then so this is still the case.

So unfortunately for your argument the on track logic does apply to the pit lane which is why Vettel was massively in the wrong.

For the sake of clarity let me repeat that I believe the rules should be changed so that Hamilton should have ducked behind Vettel, but as the rules currently stand Hamilton was perfectly entitled to run alongside Vettel and that Vettel was seriously wrong to try and run him off the track.

[Hangaku]

In this case Lewis ought to have yielded to Vettel. Vettel did not make Hamilton drive on the blue 'slow area', Hamilton chose to in some misguided brain-fart that under identical speed-limiting he could somehow gain some advantage by driving there. Everyone involved, drivers included, know it was not intended for cars to drive on that area unless pulling in/out of their pit-box.

You're wrong. Hamilton was pushed as far right as he could go. Because he had overlap on Vettel, to be able to yield, he had to be able to move even further right to clear Vettel's rear wheel. How do you suppose he could yield in this case, if he couldn't move further right? Make his car float?