Driver styles/preferences

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timbo
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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n smikle wrote:Because back then when you had so much neck snapping, boost lagging torque, that even when you come off the throttle the car is still spinning the tyres. So much torque that the engine just buffers out the throttle inputs.
That particular graph is from 1990. So no "boost lagging".
Surely 3.5L had more torque, but how much? You still can't have more torque on wheels that they can handle.
Maybe it has something to do with the shape of the torque curve? Supposedly modern engines response is much smoother. Maybe with more aggressive curve such PAM/PWM input works better?

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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I know my car (a 1989 model 2.5 liter 2 valves per cylinder) after stabbing the gas, you pretty much have half a second to do anything you want before the engine responds.hehe

Was there traction control in those days?
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timbo
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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n smikle wrote:I know my car (a 1989 model 2.5 liter 2 valves per cylinder) after stabbing the gas, you pretty much have half a second to do anything you want before the engine responds.hehe

Was there traction control in those days?
Not on McLaren.
As to delay in response — maybe, although a) I reckon atmo F1 engine have to be faster b) you can hear that the engine noise modulating as he exits the corner, so revs seem to pretty much follow his foot.

bot6
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Could be a way to keep temperature in the tyres, or to correct the balance of the car.

Schumacher still does the same (but opposite): on turn in, he often gives some spurts of gas while braking, to limit the risk of rear lock while still braking strongly on the fronts...

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Oh, my.

Then, again.

Senna "stabbing" (?) a puny japanese car with merely 270 hp. Horrible shoes and white socks (arrgh), fortunately.

... is very nice feeling.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAwJsOECGBU[/youtube]

Why? Well, in the words of Bill Taley, our master,

If the front end turns-in too quick, keep going faster until it won’t.

Remember Senna was a kart driver.
Last edited by Ciro Pabón on 22 Mar 2011, 00:56, edited 2 times in total.
Ciro

bot6
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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And that's an outlap... And he's already pretty much on the limit of the car all the time!

Whatever the car he was in, Senna was always Senna.

SoliRossi
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Whilst this thread seems to have merged away from its intended topic it has been very interesting reading. I spend a bit of time thinking about driving styles and trying to categorise drivers as to how they drive and what makes them fast.

All the talk here has been of over and under steer, but I think that tends to be driven by the car and its limitations as opposed to what style a driver has.

When discussing a drivers style I think its more important to have an indication of how they achieve their lap time as a result of which side of traction they drive on, or put simply are they a reactive driver or are they an intuitive driver.

From what I have read, drivers such as Schumacher, Alonso and Kimmi were intuitive drivers, they would feel the car doing something before it actually happened. Through the seat of their pants they could tell the car was going to do X or Y so they made lots of small corrections before the event. This allowed them to be quick, but its not nesecarrily the fastest way to drive, however its real strength is that it allows the driver to be super consistent, as they are achieving near perfect lap time whilst staying on the cautions side of traction, dont get me wrong they are still on the limit so to speak.

Then you have drivers like Vettel, Webber, Hamilton and Kubica. These guys are more reactive. They actually allow the slide to start before they make their corrections and inputs. They tend to operate on the outer edge of traction. This method will allow them to be a bit faster than the other group of guys if they get it right, however there is much less room for error and in turn its a less consistent way of driving.

The thing about the first two grops above is that if you watch them drive a modern car from the outside it will look very settled and composed, but when you go onboard you will see a lot of steering input and minor corrections. They are both feeling for grip right at the limit but one is just above it and one just below it.

The last group is the driver like Button who is probably more reliant on the car, dont take that the wrong way as every driver is reliant on the car to set a quick time. Its also not a negative either. However his optimum style is when the car does not require so much manipulation to get it to the limit. The tell tale sign is when you look at onboard footage and his inputs are so smooth a linear. It could be argued he is probably more accurate with his inputs than the other groups as if he understand the car he gets his turn in, throttle application etc... all correct and does not require all the smaller corrections. The negative is this is only possible when the car is bang on. If he is not comfortable then you cant drive like this and be fast.

The quickest way around the track is with maximum traction, so in theory no driver should prefer or desire a pointy or an understeery car. Simplistically I would assume that a car that has too much US means the driver needs to go slower entering the corner or have better throttle control, where as one that tends towards OS is more induced by too aggressive throttle application for the cars capabilities.

Surley a better indication of a drivers style is how he brings the car to the limit of adhesion and how he keeps it there, granted a driver may feel better or more conformable if its the front or back that lets go first, but their fastest 'style' is a car that is sliding in unison or griping in unison.

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Well, SoliRossi, I feel I have to add this, and I'm not against all what you say (although I'm not so sure as you are about the relative merits and styles):

I don't know about the best drivers, it is hard to deduce what they're doing when you don't feel the car, cannot see their feet and have no idea of what they are doing with brake bias, etc. The cars are different and they are balanced in different ways. Let me try to explain, a bit incoherently, as usual.

Frankly, I have no idea of what's to drive a truly powerful car. I'm a chicken, specially at 51 and with three kids. So, take all this with a grain of salt, will ya?

I think that the last natural drivers were Gilles and Keke, or better yet, some people I've talked to say so. Why do I think they're right?

The kids I teach learn a lot when I say them: "where is the car limiting you?"

If you go faster and faster (and that's VERY hard to do, the limit is usually the person behind the wheel) the car will show its weaknesses. For that, you have to be brave. Are you freaking and giving too much steering at entrance? Then, try again, because it's not the car limiting you, it's you limiting the car.

Most kids, when given a better car (and that's something you have to do: give them a bad camber. Then give them a good one. See what happens. It will show you who's natural and who's not: less than one in one thousand), I repeat, when given a better car they use it to get the same lap time!

They are trying to repeat what they have done before. They are trying to get the same speed, no matter what. They don't learn from the car, they learn from themselves and the clock is fvck1ng them, figuratively speaking. In simulators, even without any risk, people tend to do the same thing over and over: be conservative.

Do you keep the steering constant after the apex? Do you add steering after the apex? Do you countersteer after the apex (DON'T!). Do you have to wait to throttle afer the apex or are you saying to yourself "will I go off track?" All this counts as the car limiting you.

Once you find the confidence in your car and you start to think that you can actually put 105%, then the car will show you where exactly is failing.

A good driver has excellent memory and works incrementally.

You have to split the curve: entrance, steering, rotation, apex, exit. You have to remember how you did it for every curve. Now, you give it 105% and you'll see where the darn car is limiting you. Then, you tell the engineer where are the limits. He will try his best. Do it again. If you can put 105%, that will be your new floor.

How do you do that? Nobody knows, let's be sincere. How do you run? How do you breath?

It is also very important to understand this (well, I think, perhaps it's just too much yoga when young): YOU DO NOT MOVE YOUR BODY DIRECTLY (except some areas of face and neck). You move your body through your cerebellum (you know, the thing with funny slots under your brain). That is why sports take at least two years to learn. It's not your brain which is learning, it is your cerebellum and you do not control it. It learns by itself.

Cerebellum is a very old piece of hardware, as strange to your brain as your heart. It works alone and belongs to a different time in evolution. It existed before mammals developed brains. It is reptilian, as Carl Sagan pointed out.

... whole orchestras play inside our heads...
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owefQheNqwo[/youtube]

It is learning all the time, even from things you do not realize are happening: the angle of the wind on your face, the colour of the tyres, the screeching of them, the movement of the sun against the backdrop of trees, the angle of the sideslope you feel in your butt, the centripetal force pressing against your ribs and shoulder, who knows? It's actually like if you were commanding a robot through verbal commands and then the robot tries to do what you want. That's why you need practice. So, natural cerebellums are few... or so I believe. Mine is a sloth.

Hope this helps somebody.
Ciro

timbo
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Not to belittle The Magician (I doubt that is even possible for someone who knows anything about F1), but
Ciro Pabón wrote:Remember Senna was a kart driver.
As Schuey, Nando, Massa etc. They all don't do "stabbing the throttle" thing.
And not only Senna was doing that in mid-80's to mid-90's.
So something was stemming from his own way of driving, but there was something about the cars too (not related to turbo).

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Interesting post Ciro... Natural learning. Unconscious learning.
So drivers that tend to run the car without complaining about setup.. MSC, Hamilton, Kubica, Rosberg, Alonso... and A few more I guess are more cerebral? While the Massas, Buttons and Buemi's of this world are more on the neural side of things?
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PlatinumZealot
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Did you guys see Hamilton switch the style up today? Crazy stuff. I mean I know he's adaptable and stuff but good lord. somebody stop him!
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Tamburello
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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I think the car under you dictates to a large part how to drive fast and all good drivers are able to extract speed by understanding its characteristics.

The MP4-26 was very balanced all weekend so there was no need to throw it around. The Ferrari, OTOH, was struggling from Sat onwards and the drivers had to muscle it around.

I could be totally wrong though...

mariano
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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in the f1 racing nº104 I read from Peter Windsor that Schumacher has a second steering aproach more agressive than Raikkonen´s. The second steering aproach is before, at or after the apex? What is aproach? What is input? Does Raikkonen brake like (in the same form, equally) Michael Schumacher? Can somebody teach me about driving techniques and styles (with all -braking, trail-braking, cornering, acceleration and unwinding- )? If Schumacher´s and Raikkonen´s trajetory is "square", Button´s and Rosberg´s is "circle"?
Thank you

mariano
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Can anybody answer me, please?
Thank you,
mariano

Jersey Tom
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Getting into those specifics is a bit subjective without logged data.

There are some folks who feel comfortable making some blanket statements about what different drivers prefer... many of which I don't feel are entirely accurate or tell the whole story.

My opinion is that drivers will use whatever technique and line that best suits their car and racetrack at any given point in time... though everyone has a certain "feel" they are most comfortable with. Describing that feel as "oversteer" or "understeer" is crap, IMO.
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